Am Payouts stifle pro growth?

[brutalbrutus]

I hate receiving plastic I don't throw. Sure, it was fun at the beginning to be swimming in all that new plastic but after the first year when I actually started cashing regularly, I loathed trying to sell it. It got to the point where I would just lay a bunch of discs on my hood during lunch and put up a sign that said $5... At club events where they are for certain not going to have anything I will throw, I would sell my vouchers for half of face value.

 

[Three Putt]

I hate receiving plastic I don't throw. Sure, it was fun at the beginning to be swimming in all that new plastic but after the first year, I loathed trying to sell it. It got to the point where I would just lay a bunch of discs on my hood during lunch and put up a sign that said $5... At club events where they are for certain not going to have anything I will throw, I would sell my vouchers for half of face value.

Hell, I pay cash money for plastic I don't throw. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Hell, I pay cash money for plastic I don't throw. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!?

Lol, I guess i'm just into hoarding like some people...

In all seriousness, I never really got into the collecting side of the game, I just liked playing tourneys for the competition. I was a league bowler for many years, starting in youth leagues for 10yrs before another 5 or so in adult leagues before I quit. When I found out there were DG tourneys, I went nuts for a couple years playing in them. The whole get "total value" back thing never made sense to me coming from that background. I was used to paying $15-20 twice a week and not seeing any of that come back to me, other than the small payouts at the end of the season. Maybe $5 per player a week went into that pool.

Also, I don't have a lot of money available to spend on plastic all the time. When I buy a disc, I throw it. If I don't like it, I trade it back in on something else I might like.

 

[Three Putt]

The whole get "total value" back thing never made sense to me coming from that background. I was used to paying $15-20 twice a week and not seeing any of that come back to me, other than the small payouts at the end of the season. Maybe $5 per player a week went into that pool.

It's really weird that we are the way that we are. All I can figure is that the sport from the mid 80's on was player-driven. Disc golfers putting on events for disc golfers. Those disc golfers were Pro's who wanted to play for money, so the payout became the be-all end-all. The idea that an event would be a profit-generator for the host kinda goes out the window and disc golfers got into this annoying habit of counting pennies and demanding to know where their money was going.

If you come from a background of pretty much any other individual sport, you know the reality of paying money and competing for a trophy. The competition and the experience drives the players. Disc golf is and has always been payout-driven, the competition and the experience are secondary.

 

[brutalbrutus]

It is a weird system for sure... its like if you played in a foursome every week and each player put up $10 but the player who finished 4th still wound up taking $9 home with him...

 

[brutalbrutus]

Lol, I guess i'm just NOT into hoarding like some people...

In all seriousness, I never really got into the collecting side of the game, I just liked playing tourneys for the competition. I was a league bowler for many years, starting in youth leagues for 10yrs before another 5 or so in adult leagues before I quit. When I found out there were DG tourneys, I went nuts for a couple years playing in them. The whole get "total value" back thing never made sense to me coming from that background. I was used to paying $15-20 twice a week and not seeing any of that come back to me, other than the small payouts at the end of the season. Maybe $5 per player a week went into that pool.

Also, I don't have a lot of money available to spend on plastic all the time. When I buy a disc, I throw it. If I don't like it, I trade it back in on something else I might like.

Typosaurus Rex strikes again...:doh:

 

[biscoe]

Over the past couple years I have run 5 C tiers with $10 entry fees and no players pack or prizes beyond trophies. All have sold out the number of Am spots available. IMO those of you who claim players will not come out for this type of thing do not actually know that because no one in your area has tried it. Discussing how things ought to be online is fun and interesting to some people but there is very little risk involved in running that type of event- no merch to be bought beforehand and then get stuck with, etc. I challenge some of you to actually do it and see what the result is, you may be surprised that the Am players in your area are not as addicted to trinkets as you believe. What do you have to lose?

There are new players coming into the game all the time. These players are not predisposed to believe that they need to be bribed into playing with player's packs. It is the organizers who perpetuate that myth and the PDGA who prop it up with trinket requirements for their various tier levels.

 

[JRW III]

Players packs are the work of the Devil. :|

I know there are people in this thread saying they would prefer a cheaper event with no players pack. I don't disbelieve them since I would prefer that as well. The fact is that we are a minority; the vast amount of Am players want the players pack and are willing to pay what it takes to get them.

One of the local clubs in my area did a Facebook poll on this when they were planning an upcoming event. Question was "INTERMEDIATE level players only- Would you play a sanctioned event for payout or receive a large players pack?" 48 voted payout and only 26 voted player pack.

 

[Three Putt]

Over the past couple years I have run 5 C tiers with $10 entry fees and no players pack or prizes beyond trophies. All have sold out the number of Am spots available. IMO those of you who claim players will not come out for this type of thing do not actually know that because no one in your area has tried it. Discussing how things ought to be online is fun and interesting to some people but there is very little risk involved in running that type of event- no merch to be bought beforehand and then get stuck with, etc. I challenge some of you to actually do it and see what the result is, you may be surprised that the Am players in your area are not as addicted to trinkets as you believe. What do you have to lose?

There are new players coming into the game all the time. These players are not predisposed to believe that they need to be bribed into playing with player's packs. It is the organizers who perpetuate that myth and the PDGA who prop it up with trinket requirements for their various tier levels.

I tried it. Our local core of players said $15 to play for trophies was a rip-off and demanded to know "where our money is going." Uh, the park department was taking 20% off the top for administrative fees. Trophies aren't free. Once you hit the break even point, the rest of the money goes into the general fund and pays for stuff like mowing. "That's bull****, they have to mow the park anyway! We shouldn't pay for that!" It was very much a penny for penny accounting for their money and if 100% of it wasn't coming back to them, they would not play.

So I guess it depends on where you are.

You have the advantage of being on private land so the money ending up in the hands of the evil local government isn't an issue for you. It's a problem I run into whenever I try to do anything.

 

[rodney5756]

What about the effect these player packs have on growing the TD scene? I've thought about running a tourney but it's just so much with the packs and everything... but at the same time I want people to show up!

 

[Three Putt]

What about the effect these player packs have on growing the TD scene? I've thought about running a tourney but it's just so much with the packs and everything... but at the same time I want people to show up!

It's daunting to lay out all that cash and then wonder if people are going to show or not. If I was a vendor and had an outlet to unload it other than an event, it would be fine. If I had a club footing the bill and then unloading the leftovers, less fine but still OK. To just be a guy trying to make something happen? Can't do it, it risks too much cash. "Sorry, kids. Either go on a diet or learn to digest dri-fit shirts." :\

 

[biscoe]

I tried it. Our local core of players said $15 to play for trophies was a rip-off and demanded to know "where our money is going." Uh, the park department was taking 20% off the top for administrative fees. Trophies aren't free. Once you hit the break even point, the rest of the money goes into the general fund and pays for stuff like mowing. "That's bull****, they have to mow the park anyway! We shouldn't pay for that!" It was very much a penny for penny accounting for their money and if 100% of it wasn't coming back to them, they would not play.

So I guess it depends on where you are.

You have the advantage of being on private land so the money ending up in the hands of the evil local government isn't an issue for you. It's a problem I run into whenever I try to do anything.

How recently did you try it though? IMO the mindset of the player base is not the same as it was 10-15 years ago. A lot of the old school nickel and dimers have aged out. I also have the distinct advantage of not giving a crap if some players don't like how I run things and choose not to show up. Only 3 of the 5 cheapie events were on private courses.

 

[Three Putt]

How recently did you try it though?

January? Maybe it was February. I try it at least once a year because I think it should work. I think 22 is the most players I ever have had. I ran an event with three once. The Ice Bowl in 2018 was the last one that actually ran.

I had a doubles league that ran from 2010-2017. It was he same deal; $15 per player, winners got a couple of discs. It had 8-10 teams for a good while but then died, I ran the last league with two teams. The issue of what the City was doing with everyone's $15 got to be this big huge deal.

Again, I come from a background where I worked for municipal parks and recreation departments and I ran softball leagues, volleyball leagues, basketball leagues, soccer leagues, tennis leagues, etc. We also held tournaments and such. New flash: ALL of that stuff ran at a profit. ALL of it. If it broke even or ran at a deficit, I'd be fired. Hell, I ran a day camp at a profit. It was the job. The stuff that cost money and ran at a deficit were the big special events like Easter egg hunts that were free; if you were paying a fee it was a profit-generator. I ran a youth basketball program in Chicago that was a cash cow; we made an embarrassing amount of money off that, it more than covered my salary. Nobody ever asked me where their money was going. No one ever demanded that all the softball profits be used to improve the softball fields. The fees were what they were, you wanted to play or you didn't. Twelve years of parks and recreation work and there was one group of people who hassled me about where their money went.

That group? Disc golfers.

Hopefully that is changing. I'm not seeing it here, though.

 

[TimSyl]

I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend how anyone would want to TD a disc golf tournament at this point.

Great question. I TD a couple/few tournaments a year and EVERY year think "I'm not doing this again", and then, voila, the next year comes around. (Disc golfers and their expected rate of return for participating in an event continues to baffle me).

 

[scarpfish]

In all honesty, I never has an Am player had a problem with a TD taking the wholesale to retail markup made off of my entry fee and using that for pro added cash. The way I see it, the entry fee was $x, the value of the player's pack was $y, and the payout to my division was $z. As long as those met a reasonable standard, we're cool.

Where I might have a problem with this practice is as a member of the club putting on the event, taking in those potential profits, that could go towards building club assets, course improvements, or something that benefits everyone, instead using it as payout to people who quite possibly aren't club members and will take it out of town never to return.

If anything that is a disc golf issue has decreased my participation in tournaments, it is the rising cost...

compounded by the "been there, done that" factor where I have more tourney stamped discs, shirts and other shwag than I know what to do with...

compounded further by the fact that leagues offer the experience of competitive play without all that ancillary expense and preparation that comes with a tournament. Even factoring in the gas I spend for the extra trips, I can probably go to a league five times for the same money as a standard two round tournament. Every time I go, my score is reset to zero.

 

[JC17393]

How recently did you try it though? IMO the mindset of the player base is not the same as it was 10-15 years ago. A lot of the old school nickel and dimers have aged out. I also have the distinct advantage of not giving a crap if some players don't like how I run things and choose not to show up. Only 3 of the 5 cheapie events were on private courses.

I think even with a lot of "old school" nickel and dimers, a low cost event can still be popular and sell out. Around here, my competition when it comes to tournaments are two separate local non-sanctioned series that pay cash to all divisions and, on the PDGA side, a lot of relatively high priced B & C tiers where the player packs are getting more and more extravagant (e.g. $60 am entry for a C-tier...player pack including a disc, choice of stool/umbrella/hat/shirt, and miscellaneous swag plus script/funny money payout).

I run a low cost C-tier (am entry = $15) where each am gets a choice of disc as a player pack and the winners get trophies. It sells out each year. I also run a low cost B-tier (am entry = $25) where I hustle a bit more and the player pack is a bit bigger (this year = two custom discs, a custom tee shirt, and a $10 gift card to an online vendor). It is also trophies to the winners, no prizes. It sold out in an hour this year, now has a 40+ player waitlist, and it did so before I ever secured any sponsorship so all I was promising was one disc in the player pack.

And it's not like the players at my events have no cross-over with the ones at the non-sanctioned cash-to-all-divisions tournaments. They're mostly the same players. They enjoy competing no matter what the prize and they don't really complain about where their money goes (at least not loud enough that I hear it). Players are a bit more sophisticated and savvy these days. Or, they're just well trained that complaints of that nature are likely to fall on deaf ears anyway.

 

[Guurn]

I'm not sure I have ever seen a cheap AM tourney. If you think about any other individual sport ours looks ridiculous. I'd be cool with a 20 dollar entry and a t-shirt. I'd prefer it wasn't high tech, just cotton. The difference can go to paying the organizer and the trophy or whatever. Do people still want trophies? I could see a medallion or a disc wall hanger or something. Now and perhaps more importantly, about those 6 hour tourney rounds...

 

[biscoe]

Or, they're just well trained that complaints of that nature are likely to fall on deaf ears anyway.

Yep, training them right is a huge part of it.

 

[biscoe]

January? Maybe it was February. I try it at least once a year because I think it should work. I think 22 is the most players I ever have had. I ran an event with three once. The Ice Bowl in 2018 was the last one that actually ran.

I had a doubles league that ran from 2010-2017. It was he same deal; $15 per player, winners got a couple of discs. It had 8-10 teams for a good while but then died, I ran the last league with two teams. The issue of what the City was doing with everyone's $15 got to be this big huge deal.

Again, I come from a background where I worked for municipal parks and recreation departments and I ran softball leagues, volleyball leagues, basketball leagues, soccer leagues, tennis leagues, etc. We also held tournaments and such. New flash: ALL of that stuff ran at a profit. ALL of it. If it broke even or ran at a deficit, I'd be fired. Hell, I ran a day camp at a profit. It was the job. The stuff that cost money and ran at a deficit were the big special events like Easter egg hunts that were free; if you were paying a fee it was a profit-generator. I ran a youth basketball program in Chicago that was a cash cow; we made an embarrassing amount of money off that, it more than covered my salary. Nobody ever asked me where their money was going. No one ever demanded that all the softball profits be used to improve the softball fields. The fees were what they were, you wanted to play or you didn't. Twelve years of parks and recreation work and there was one group of people who hassled me about where their money went.

That group? Disc golfers.

Hopefully that is changing. I'm not seeing it here, though.

I have seen an extensive change in it around here over the last 10 years or so. hopefully it will spread. The nickel and dimer model is unsustainable and drives good TD's out of the game.

 

[JRW III]

...Where I might have a problem with this practice is as a member of the club putting on the event, taking in those potential profits, that could go towards building club assets, course improvements, or something that benefits everyone, instead using it as payout to people who quite possibly aren't club members and will take it out of town never to return. ...

Yet that is where the current model is for most of the larger tournaments. Local clubs raises money, invests time, taps their sponsor base and at the end of the day, a touring pro comes in and takes the money not to return until next year.