Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Pwingles]

My point: If you can't go for the main green from the tee (due to skill or conditions), then laying up to the short peninsula still isn't a gimme 3. So I don't understand why it's OB.

Yes, in good conditions for a good player, the layup would be an easy 3. But in that case, they're going for the basket off the tee anyway.

He said during the player meeting saturday AM that it was to encourage people to play like a man.

 

[pablo.diablo]

I had to layup on the left to the short tee throwing FIVE b/c my first two shots went into the drink. Only then did I realize I could throw over to the short tee, as I had no other options left.

The part that sucked was that you couldn't take a drop from the island off a tee-shot that landed near the pin but rolled in (it's all sloped towards water). Because NORMALLY playing regular golf rules, you'd obviously get the drop. But for the tourney, no. It is what it is. The 20-mph headwind did not help.

My partner and I did not know about the ruling until we got to the hole so we had no strategy in place to go around the pond if one of us didn't make it. We both just assumed to throw for the island. That was the only really bad hole we had in our last round and we carded a double-circle 8 which is why we missed the cut for the Final 9. So whatever, lesson learned. Next year I know what to do.

 

[grodney]

The part that sucked was that you couldn't take a drop from the island off a tee-shot that landed near the pin but rolled in (it's all sloped towards water). Because NORMALLY playing regular golf rules, you'd obviously get the drop. But for the tourney, no.

If you hit the basket peninsula (or flew over it) you didn't get your next lie from on the peninsula?

I take it that's a special OB rule for the tourney (based on your comment)? I don't keep up with PDGA rules, so I'm pretty ignorant here.

 

[pablo.diablo]

Exactly, it was a special ruling just for the tourney. My partner landed 20' from the pin and caught an edge and the unluckiest damn roll barely into the H2O. So instead of taking a drop and putting, he re-teed...three more into the Lake. Then he quit the hole and I had to finish it on my own.

 

[Pwingles]

I had to layup on the left to the short tee throwing FIVE b/c my first two shots went into the drink. Only then did I realize I could throw over to the short tee, as I had no other options left.

The part that sucked was that you couldn't take a drop from the island off a tee-shot that landed near the pin but rolled in (it's all sloped towards water). Because NORMALLY playing regular golf rules, you'd obviously get the drop. But for the tourney, no. It is what it is. The 20-mph headwind did not help.

My partner and I did not know about the ruling until we got to the hole so we had no strategy in place to go around the pond if one of us didn't make it. We both just assumed to throw for the island. That was the only really bad hole we had in our last round and we carded a double-circle 8 which is why we missed the cut for the Final 9. So whatever, lesson learned. Next year I know what to do.

I pinned it sat in the headwind, we 3'd it sunday, very lucky, lots of teams shot double digits on it for the weekend

 

[Steve West]

Rodney, here's the tee sign for Creekside #18, blue tee.

As with all the signs, we made the "fairway" a lighter green. The OB areas on the near peninsula and behind the basket are clearly labeled, no?

Lots of room to lay up, and even to play around the pond, though that's not all shown.

If it's not on the tee sign, it doesn't exist?

 

[jeverett]

Exactly, it was a special ruling just for the tourney. My partner landed 20' from the pin and caught an edge and the unluckiest damn roll barely into the H2O. So instead of taking a drop and putting, he re-teed...three more into the Lake. Then he quit the hole and I had to finish it on my own.

Ok, this may be a slight shift from the topic, but what *really* is the function of these kinds of gimmicks? Yes, they make a hole tougher.. but they also make a hole more random. If the goal is to produce a high(er) correlation coefficient between player rating and round score, these types of artificial difficulty-increasing tourney rules in my experience do just the opposite. Even very high-rated players can occasionally get bit, and lower-skilled players may get lucky and come through totally unscathed while their equally-rated compatriots get 10's.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Having players throw from the previous lie when going OB is an option the designer or TD can apply to a particular hole design for tournament play. Per the 2013 rule 804.04(3), the PDGA Tour Manager must be informed if the TD wants this restriction. Before 2013, it was at the discretion of the TD/Designer without PDGA Approval.

 

[Steve West]

A slight adjustment, to see if this makes the go-around option more clear.

 

[Dave242]

A slight adjustment to make the peninsula in play (and remove the "you can't go there because I say so and I'm your dad" mando mentality):

Woops - I just realized I forgot to remove the original location of the Red tee (it should not be there any more)

It do not know if the shout out to the big arms (380') messes with the mix of that aspect of the course.....but I'll be scoring spread would work out very well for Blue. And, I really like the additional layup choices (each with their own risk/reward) that are added in this config.

 

[Dave242]

A slight adjustment, to see if this makes the go-around option more clear.

I seem to be missing what you altered.....maybe I am blind. Please explain.

 

[Dave242]

I do not know if the shout out to the big arms (380') messes with the mix of that aspect of the course design.....but I'll bet scoring spread would work out very well for Blue. And, I really like the additional layup choices (each with their own risk/reward) that are added in this config.

Fixed a couple typos......and I need to add that I am not at all criticizing the Selah design (I have not been there and there is much more to it than meets the eye of from photos and maps). Rather, I am just using this example as a springboard to ask questions about 1) artificial OB mentality and 2) risk/reward options on lay-up choices.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Is it possible that the peninsula can be underwater sometimes during the year which is the reason for keeping it OB?

 

[Dave242]

I would say no by looking at this picture (basket to tee looking over the peninsula). If anything, the peninsula is Mt Ararat.

 

[grodney]

Ha, I took that same angle photo. Correct, the short peninsula isn't going to be under water. Dave the BEST part of your alteration is the quotation.

 

[pablo.diablo]

Ok, this may be a slight shift from the topic, but what *really* is the function of these kinds of gimmicks? Yes, they make a hole tougher.. but they also make a hole more random. If the goal is to produce a high(er) correlation coefficient between player rating and round score, these types of artificial difficulty-increasing tourney rules in my experience do just the opposite. Even very high-rated players can occasionally get bit, and lower-skilled players may get lucky and come through totally unscathed while their equally-rated compatriots get 10's.

Honestly it wouldn't have been such a crazy hole under normal weather conditions. My shot was basically touching the edge but some kid picked it up and we had to rule it OB. Like I said I didn't consider the "alternate" layup route until I had no choice (meaning I didn't have another disc to throw over the water).

So it would have been kinda cool, but I think it should have been setup that way for ADVANCED players only if at all. The other divisions had to struggle with the ruling.

If it weren't for this ruling we may have made the cut. Some people think it's gimmicky. Oh well, I know how to do it next time.

 

[Steve West]

I seem to be missing what you altered.....maybe I am blind. Please explain.

I didn't change the hole, just moved the graphic over to the right to show the left side of the lake shore. My thinking was that if people see it on the map, they'll think about throwing there.

 

[jongoff09]

He said during the player meeting saturday AM that it was to encourage people to play like a man.

He said that about the mando on 18 Lakeside... During Paige and EMac's tourney, players were throwing into #1's fairway from that tee to avoid going over the water.

 

[johnrhouck]

p.s. I don't understand why the short peninsula is OB.

Lots of good questions about Creekside #18, including why is the peninsula OB, is an OB peninsula like a mandatory, and why did we implement the OB ruling we did?

For starters, the main reason it's OB is because otherwise a smart way to play the hole would be to throw two 150' pitch shots with no trees involved. That's not a golf hole, in my opinion. Yes, the landing area and green are a little tricky, but not tricky enough to justify that distance. Anyone who wants to lay up can throw 200' to the short tee (with water danger and trees to negotiate), and then 200' or more to the pin. Much more interesting and challenging.

And, of course, anyone playing a casual round at Selah can pitch out to the peninsula if he or she wants to -- there won't be any OB police to bother you.

I did consider moving the tee in order to make the peninsula less attractive, but you lose the visual appeal of having the tee by the water, and one of two other things happens: if you keep the distance to the pin, the red tee gets closer, or if you keep the distance to the red tee, the pin gets too far away. Planting trees on the peninsula would have made the drive to the pin too hard.

How does this OB compare to a mando? I do always try to avoid mandos (and OB's), but I don't have a problem with a common sense mando that doesn't feel restrictive and that very few people will ever miss. In this particular case, I'm OK with the OB because a) I don't imagine a lot of people saying "This really bothers me, because I really wanted to throw two 150' pitch shots," and b) it's better than the alternatives I described above.

As for the tournament rule that all OB drives must re-tee, there are good arguments on both sides. One often-overlooked reason is that any almost shot down by the water is invisible from the tee. It would take at least one nimble and well-trained spotter to see which drives hit in-bounds and where they went out. Ditto for drives that were over in-bounds but never hit land. It's almost impossible for players to make an accurate call. Imagine a shot that goes about 300' and fades into the water. There's no way players could tell if it was ever over land or not.

Another reason, obviously, is to add to the strategy of the hole and make the shot to the red tee more of an option. As bad as the weather was, a lot of people only went for the pin because they had a partner to play safe. As several people pointed out, good weather would have made the decision-making process a whole lot different.

 

[johnrhouck]

I am making a course is designed for Advanced players with shorter tees for beginners.

Below is a crude drawing of one hole. I want this to be an ace run, but with some danger.

Currently the long hole is 300', but we can put the teebox as close or as far from the basket as we want. It is a straight hole. Along the left is a bunch of dense, young trees- if you end up in them, you will have no problem pitching back out to the fairway, but will have troubles finding a window for a birdie opportunity.

The basket is 30' out from these trees. Other than these trees along the left, it is a wide open field. We have been playing with OB along the right and behind the basket. This OB exists for two reasons. First (and most importantly), there is a parallel fairway on the other side of it we want to keep discs out of. We aren't too concerned about safety (both holes have completely unobstructed views of the other hole), but during leagues/tournaments want to preserve flow by making sure people aren't taking their second shot in another fairway. Second, the OB takes what is a hole that had little risk and adds some.

I don't want to move the basket. However, I can move the teebox and OB lines. So here is my question: for Advance players, what is a good length for this hole? How far behind the basket would you put OB? How far to the right would you put OB?

Aardvarkious,

Sorry it took so long to get back on this one.

I'm glad you're concerned about keeping players out of each other's fairways. Where I'm having trouble is reconciling your desire to make it an "ace run" with your desire to use OB.

OB behind the basket, even within 75' feet I would think, will encourage people to lay up, not run at the pin. The tighter you make the OB on the right side, the less people will want to run at it. Even the woods 30' away will encourage players to be more cautious.

I'm not a big fan of artificial OB just to make a hole tougher. Is there a way you can stick the tee in the woods -- that could be a good way to keep players off of the other fairway. Other than that, I think the biggest factor will be how the hole fits into the rest of the course. If you have several other 300' holes, then maybe you want this one to be shorter, etc.

Hope that helps a little.

Thanks,
John