Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[thumber_guy]

For a public course that is all par 3, what is the best range of hole lengths in order to maximize usage by both casual and skilled players?

 

[johnrhouck]

Hi, Illinois and nearby golfers. Does anyone know of a golf course in Illinois converted to disc golf that serves alcohol? We have a venue that is looking for precedents. Thanks.

 

[goosefraba1]

Hi, Illinois and nearby golfers. Does anyone know of a golf course in Illinois converted to disc golf that serves alcohol? We have a venue that is looking for precedents. Thanks.

Is this heaven?

 

[Steve West]

Hi, Illinois and nearby golfers. Does anyone know of a golf course in Illinois converted to disc golf that serves alcohol? We have a venue that is looking for precedents. Thanks.

Why Illinois? Do they have golf-specific alcohol rules or something?

 

[goosefraba1]

Hey John... I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I haven't found it. How important is it for you when designing a par 4 for that hole to Eagle-able for the player of that skill? For example, would you favor a par 4 hole on a blue level course that say a 950 rated player has 3-5% chance of eagle? I'm saying landing at 50-80 feet out and then draining that monster putt... Not exactly a throw in, but just a great drive and a great putt.

 

[Gblambert]

Hey John... I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I haven't found it. How important is it for you when designing a par 4 for that hole to Eagle-able for the player of that skill? For example, would you favor a par 4 hole on a blue level course that say a 950 rated player has 3-5% chance of eagle? I'm saying landing at 50-80 feet out and then draining that monster putt... Not exactly a throw in, but just a great drive and a great putt.

Good question! And along those same lines, how many par three's on a typical course do you design with intentionally makable ace lines, if any?

 

[johnrhouck]

For a public course that is all par 3, what is the best range of hole lengths in order to maximize usage by both casual and skilled players?

Thanks for your patience, Thumber Guy. If all you have room for, or if all the client wants, is par threes, then I would get as wide a range as possible... as long as they're all good holes.

There is such a think as a good 180' hole, but a hole that short would need to have some special feature, like being uphill, or extra tight (but still fair), or extra risky (small but fair green, island green, etc.) As for the top end, I think par threes should always be reachable by everyone in the skill level it's intended for. Most of the courses I do have Blue tees as the longest tees, so I rarely do a hole over 330', unless it's got some downhill to it. If you only have one set of tees, I might go out to 360' and say it's a par four for beginners.

More important than distance, though, will be having a variety of shot shapes, wind direction, uphill/downhill/sidehill, OB location if you have water, tight/open, and on and on. Those factors will give players a greater sense of playing different holes.

Of course, I would always try to find a way to get some par fours out there if there were any way I could do it. But I understand that sometimes it's just not possible.

Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John... I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I haven't found it. How important is it for you when designing a par 4 for that hole to Eagle-able for the player of that skill? For example, would you favor a par 4 hole on a blue level course that say a 950 rated player has 3-5% chance of eagle? I'm saying landing at 50-80 feet out and then draining that monster putt... Not exactly a throw in, but just a great drive and a great putt.

Hi, Goose. This is a great question and an important one.

I have made very few par fours that are eagle-able by the skill level they're designed for. I know not all designers will agree with me here, but I consider a true par four to be one that requires two good shots to get a putt. For the kind of hole you have in mind, if Blue players can get to 50-80', chances are they can get to 100-150', which -- unless there are a lot of trees with tight but fair gaps or some other salient features -- means your looking at NAGS (Not A Golf Shot).

When I do a deliberately eagle-able par four, it requires a great shot to get to the green, and any other available lines require two legitimate shots. Hole #2 at Selah Lakeside is a great example, because of the strategy options it offers. Hole #3 at Texas Twist is probably an easier-to-understand example. I'm including a copy of the tee sign.

Clearing the water requires a 400' drive, and the fact that the basket is on a little bit of an isthmus means that a drive that's 400' long but right or left will be wet. And anyone who can throw extra long to be safe will be looking at a long putt with water behind, so you really have to earn your eagle.

If you take the two-shot route through the woods, even a really good drive leaves you with a 200' approach up and over the dam and a substantial water carry. So a birdie is a really good score.

That's my basic philosophy of par fours. I have done holes designed as two legitimate shots where an amazing drive can get you a long eagle putt. One example is #15 at WR Jackson, which Dave Feldberg nailed a few times at early tournaments there. I think other superstars have hit it since then.

On the other hand, I work very hard to make sure that my par fives are eagle-able. Doing that while avoiding NAGS zones is tricky business, but I feel like I've been pretty successful, and I continue to refine my techniques. I did one last week, in fact, that is probably the most elegant I've ever done. And both Strawn and Frost Valley will have multiple par fives that I really like.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[johnrhouck]

Good question! And along those same lines, how many par three's on a typical course do you design with intentionally makable ace lines, if any?

Hi, Gregory. This one's a lot simpler. All my par threes are reachable, and therefore ace-able. I like the ball golf model, where the overwhelming majority of par threes are reachable by everyone at the intended skill level. There have been a few occasion where I've made holes where getting to 20' was a good shot, and an ace was pretty much impossible. But that was before discs had so much speed and skip. I still believe in that concept, but I would use it very sparingly, and it's almost impossible to make a good hole like that these days.

If I have enough acreage, I prefer to keep the number of par threes under nine per course, but all of them will be ace-able. Bring on the ace runs! Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Why Illinois? Do they have golf-specific alcohol rules or something?

We've been contacted by a former golf course interested in converting to disc golf, Steve. Just looking for precedents to help them make the case to keep their alcohol license in place.

 

[ChrisWoj]

John - have you designed any 6 baskets that are say - 6 par 5 teepads, 6 par 4s, 6 par 3s? Or 27 hole 9/9/9 splits like that? Or any? I'm thinking about building something like that in the future - and I'm wondering if you found any particular little challenges in it?

 

[goosefraba1]

Hi, Goose. This is a great question and an important one.

I have made very few par fours that are eagle-able by the skill level they're designed for. I know not all designers will agree with me here, but I consider a true par four to be one that requires two good shots to get a putt. For the kind of hole you have in mind, if Blue players can get to 50-80', chances are they can get to 100-150', which -- unless there are a lot of trees with tight but fair gaps or some other salient features -- means your looking at NAGS (Not A Golf Shot).

When I do a deliberately eagle-able par four, it requires a great shot to get to the green, and any other available lines require two legitimate shots. Hole #2 at Selah Lakeside is a great example, because of the strategy options it offers. Hole #3 at Texas Twist is probably an easier-to-understand example. I'm including a copy of the tee sign.

Clearing the water requires a 400' drive, and the fact that the basket is on a little bit of an isthmus means that a drive that's 400' long but right or left will be wet. And anyone who can throw extra long to be safe will be looking at a long putt with water behind, so you really have to earn your eagle.

If you take the two-shot route through the woods, even a really good drive leaves you with a 200' approach up and over the dam and a substantial water carry. So a birdie is a really good score.

That's my basic philosophy of par fours. I have done holes designed as two legitimate shots where an amazing drive can get you a long eagle putt. One example is #15 at WR Jackson, which Dave Feldberg nailed a few times at early tournaments there. I think other superstars have hit it since then.

On the other hand, I work very hard to make sure that my par fives are eagle-able. Doing that while avoiding NAGS zones is tricky business, but I feel like I've been pretty successful, and I continue to refine my techniques. I did one last week, in fact, that is probably the most elegant I've ever done. And both Strawn and Frost Valley will have multiple par fives that I really like.

Hope that answers your question.

Hey John,

Thanks for the reply, that is quite the hole that you give as an example! Once I get some maps and hole layouts with distances, I will post it again. I am almost certain that it isn't in a NAGS zone. I think that the eagle will be a very seldom one, and to reach it requires a high speed turnover/hyzerflip where if the disc fades too soon you end up down a hill side on the left (RHBH) and in some real trouble. You have to have very strong control of your game for the shot.

Thanks again John!

 

[johnrhouck]

Goose, that does sound interesting. Looking forward to seeing your hole map and photos if you have them.

 

[johnrhouck]

John - have you designed any 6 baskets that are say - 6 par 5 teepads, 6 par 4s, 6 par 3s? Or 27 hole 9/9/9 splits like that? Or any? I'm thinking about building something like that in the future - and I'm wondering if you found any particular little challenges in it?

Chris, if I understand your question, you're asking about a course that has equal numbers of each par -- is that right? For 18 holes, that would be par 72, which is higher than i like to go. At this point, I prefer a few more par threes -- that's really the historical foundation of disc golf, and I think it makes sense that we have a few more par threes than most ball golf courses have.

If I have enough land, and if the job calls for a championship course, I'll typically wind up with maybe 4 par fives, 6 par fours, and 8 par threes, or something in that neighborhood.

Now that I think about it, Strawn Road Park in Columbia, MO has that exact mix. Hoping to have that one open in the next couple months. Thanks for your question -- let me know if I answered it for you.

 

[Texconsinite]

John, I look forward to your articles in Discgolfer magazine every month, as well as your insightful discourse on this thread and your website. Thank you for taking time to advance the worthy cause of good course design.
I would really appreciate an update regarding the status of the Live Oak City Park Complex in TX? The reason I ask is I'm going to have a day to kill in San Antonio next month, and after reading about it on DGCR and your website, I am really excited to play these course(s), but it seems like the layout is in flux and based on many reviews, Im concerned about navigation since i have no idea whats actually there right now. Maps on this site are from 2013, and the last update on Houckdesign just says construction has stalled as of 2014. Do you have a more current course map or info that you can share to help a first-timer play these courses?

I thought of PMing you with this request, but figure others here would be interested to know about this

 

[johnrhouck]

John, I look forward to your articles in Discgolfer magazine every month, as well as your insightful discourse on this thread and your website. Thank you for taking time to advance the worthy cause of good course design.
I would really appreciate an update regarding the status of the Live Oak City Park Complex in TX? The reason I ask is I'm going to have a day to kill in San Antonio next month, and after reading about it on DGCR and your website, I am really excited to play these course(s), but it seems like the layout is in flux and based on many reviews, Im concerned about navigation since i have no idea whats actually there right now. Maps on this site are from 2013, and the last update on Houckdesign just says construction has stalled as of 2014. Do you have a more current course map or info that you can share to help a first-timer play these courses?

I thought of PMing you with this request, but figure others here would be interested to know about this

Gordon, thanks for the question and the kind words.

I actually just met with the City yesterday, and I believe we may be about to jump over the last (please!) hurdle. When we finally get the last (we hope!) green light to proceed, it shouldn't take very long to get both courses done, but it feels like we've been on hold forever.

Once we get the two city courses done, we should be just about ready to start on the third course, which will be essentially on the same property shared with Northeast Lakeview College.

For now, the course is configured pretty much as it always has been, so you should easily be able to find twenty-eight holes. There are additional holes that have never had good signage, and honestly I can't say which are there and which aren't -- whenever I'm down there, I work on the design and don't enjoy the course. This map should be accurate:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/584/f811c9e6.pdf

I'm sure there are also friendly locals happy to help. You probably know them, but for those who don't, one place to get in touch is https://www.facebook.com/groups/40614981139/

 

[johnrhouck]

OK, here's a better, more clear expression of the design conference information, as I sent to the Disc Golf Course Designers Group:

Hi, Everyone –
Some of you already know about this event – some of you are actually already registered for it – but for those who don't yet know, we are offering a workshop on the Art and Business of Course Design. It's October 2nd-4th and will coincide with the Grand Opening of the Frost Valley YMCA course and a PDGA B-Tier tournament. Frost Valley is in Claryville, NY in the Catskills Mountains, two hours from NYC and two hours from Albany.

This is not meant to be a regional DGCD gathering, which we had all discussed after Augusta last year. This one is my take on key aspects of designing premier disc golf courses and the business principles behind it. We'll be using a "Learn and Do" methodology, so each session will allow participants to apply and discuss the concepts for feedback with exercises. We will make sure that everyone gets to present their own ideas and solutions to the problems and exercises we've created. At this introductory course of the HouckDesign Institute (HDI), participants will also learn a little more about future education opportunities and share their thoughts on what they would like to see in the future. Everyone will also receive an exclusive commemorative and collectible disc and qualify for discounts on future workshops and classes. We will be offering more workshops in the future. In just three days, we already have eight people signed up. There are others who have also committed to come, so the response has been very encouraging. We even have an attendee from Europe who is working currently on his travel plans.

Meals and lodging are included at Frost Valley, which is an incredible place and has a course that's just spectacular. We will also be providing hot coffee, tea, and some other snacks throughout the day on Friday to the workshop attendees. We've had a great early response and have sold out of the hotel-style rooms, but we still have cabin beds in a cabin with 10 beds. So you'd be sharing the cabin with 9 other disc golfers from around the country, but that's just more fun, right? You can even get your own group of 10 together and reserve a whole cabin. The cabin option also makes it more affordable and allows you to stay on site. If you have any questions, please call Dee at 512-426-7722.

There's more information about the design part at http://www.houckdesign.com/HDI_FrostValley_10-2015.php

And you can register for the workshop and/or the tournament at http://www.houckdesign.com/HDI_FrostValley_10-2015.php

 

[Disc of Cheese]

Hey, I'd been trying to get some info on the New course at Strawn park in COMO(I'm a townie). I saw on the columbia disc golf website that the grand opening had been scheduled for august 15th (this saturday). However, Yesterday my co-worker went to check out the progress and it didn't seem like a realistic deadline (probably an older goal that wasn't met). Any hope that it will be finished before October?
Also, there are rumors flying around both ways wether or not it will be pay-to-play. My gut is telling me that since the project is funded by the city, as a park, that this wouldn't be possible, but I'd figured Since I'm already asking you a question that you might know more about it.

 

[johnrhouck]

DoC, the completion date for Strawn has been moved from July (in time for the Mid-America open) to August and now late October at best. The biggest problem has been higher-than-normal rainfall, which caused the Missouri River on several occasions. In fact, when I was there earlier this year, the crew was unable to get on the property for at least four days, and there were a couple days where I couldn't even get out there.

The flooding has done damage throughout Columbia, so parks crews have had a lot to deal with. But everyone is doing their best, and we're hoping for the end of October, but we'll just have to see.

As for it being pay-to-play, I've never heard that mentioned, so I would be very surprised.

In any case, this course will be worth the wait!

 

[Disc of Cheese]

Wonderful news! i'm a little bummed since my work picks up for the holiday season in mid November and i'll be working 60-80 hr weeks for about 7 weeks, but next spring is going to be so awesome though; I can't wait. My buddy said he saw the workings of a tee, and it looks like we are getting the trapezoid type boxes; which is cool. He also mentioned seeing a rather large hill being cleared, so we were guessing the elevation changes are incorporated. I'm glad you have this forum, the lack of online information from either columbia parks and rec and the local DG club has been rather frustrating. It's so much easier to be patient when you have an idea of what is going on.