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Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development
- Thread starter HouckDesign
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,233
Thanks. That's actually the first and only concrete pad on the course...simply no other option. My goal is when the baskets are pulled, no one would ever think there was disc golf course on the property. I hope you can come up and play it sometime. Would love to talk about forestry and sustainable disc golf design.
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tahoe
Newbie
Civil discourse and acknowledging that we are all learning!
John may be one of the most experienced course designers but he admits there is A LOT to learn, especially about 'sustainability'. His wife Dee admitted that John would like to have had a formal education in ecology, design, landscape architecture but that it was now a 'little late in life'. Now they are reaching out to collaborate with experts in relevant fields. There is tremendous responsibility in his role as a leader in course design. Jarva is an example of a landscape architect and his brother (landscape designer) transforming a naturalized disturbed landfill into one of the highest rated courses in the world, but it took decades, not one summer of club volunteers... We need to slow down and professionalize this holistic process. If we can admit that disc golf course design today is in its infancy and too myopic up to this point, then there may be hope? I find it interesting that disc golfers discuss #growthesport from all kinds of different angles except the one I feel is most important; design/build better, more attractive, more sustainable courses... Folks who already play seem to be blind to the damage to our landscapes because they are hyper-focused on the shots, the challenge, the length, the baskets, etc... To 'outsiders' most courses are not 'legible' or 'legitimate' (terms I've tried to coin in my landscape architecture thesis: Disc Golf Course Design: Inscribing Lifestyle into Underutilized Landscapes, 2013), they appear disturbed and trampled like elephant's skin, not like a 'golf course'. In order for courses to read as 'legible' and 'legitimate' down the road (25 years as suggested in a previous post), they must be 'sustainable' which primarily means preventing and managing erosion, compaction and soil profiles with trail system hierarchy, rotating greens, rotating fairways, armoring slopes, heavy mulching, etc... As a licensed landscape architect and course design I seek to help us turn that corner... But this requires real professionalization where designers and their teams are compensated appropriately. This transition should incorporate the volunteer efforts of well organized clubs and their fundraising but land managers need to lose the impression that they can 'get a course for free' and shown why their ROI will go through the roof for a professionally designed course or complex on an appropriate property for disc golf...
John may be one of the most experienced course designers but he admits there is A LOT to learn, especially about 'sustainability'. His wife Dee admitted that John would like to have had a formal education in ecology, design, landscape architecture but that it was now a 'little late in life'. Now they are reaching out to collaborate with experts in relevant fields. There is tremendous responsibility in his role as a leader in course design. Jarva is an example of a landscape architect and his brother (landscape designer) transforming a naturalized disturbed landfill into one of the highest rated courses in the world, but it took decades, not one summer of club volunteers... We need to slow down and professionalize this holistic process. If we can admit that disc golf course design today is in its infancy and too myopic up to this point, then there may be hope? I find it interesting that disc golfers discuss #growthesport from all kinds of different angles except the one I feel is most important; design/build better, more attractive, more sustainable courses... Folks who already play seem to be blind to the damage to our landscapes because they are hyper-focused on the shots, the challenge, the length, the baskets, etc... To 'outsiders' most courses are not 'legible' or 'legitimate' (terms I've tried to coin in my landscape architecture thesis: Disc Golf Course Design: Inscribing Lifestyle into Underutilized Landscapes, 2013), they appear disturbed and trampled like elephant's skin, not like a 'golf course'. In order for courses to read as 'legible' and 'legitimate' down the road (25 years as suggested in a previous post), they must be 'sustainable' which primarily means preventing and managing erosion, compaction and soil profiles with trail system hierarchy, rotating greens, rotating fairways, armoring slopes, heavy mulching, etc... As a licensed landscape architect and course design I seek to help us turn that corner... But this requires real professionalization where designers and their teams are compensated appropriately. This transition should incorporate the volunteer efforts of well organized clubs and their fundraising but land managers need to lose the impression that they can 'get a course for free' and shown why their ROI will go through the roof for a professionally designed course or complex on an appropriate property for disc golf...
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 2,233
Anyone who has the good sense to live near Lake Tahoe, gets my attention. My thoughts in a nutshell ! But, it's gonna be a tough sell.
Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
Yes the other concern hearing they are tall thin pines makes me wonder are they that way due to being too close together ? I live in South Dakota and have seen when in Black Hills fires happen due to tall thin trees the Ponderosa Pine that are only very thin due to being too close together. Odd most think of the Black Hills Spruce, not the Pine but there is in large parts of the Black Hills more the Pine then Spruce.
OK, here's your first update. Very excited about this course.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFfRJAzpv-B/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2009
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- 3,941
Thanks for the update! Pretty hole, looks like one where things could go really well or horribly wrong.
Although 270' ain't a putter throw for me, unless straight off a cliff . . . :|
It's pretty down hill and will play more like low 200's. I'm sure a lot of people will keep the putter in the bag and opt for a disc that fades hard on a righty forehand or left backhand. You're over the ravine the whole way and do not want to finish left.
The photo I posted is not quite from the tee, but you get the idea. And there is also a (tricky) RTL option if you want to avoid the ravine.
The photo I posted is not quite from the tee, but you get the idea. And there is also a (tricky) RTL option if you want to avoid the ravine.
It is important to make courses more challenging for pros -- the question is how. You know I'm on the record as not being a fan of rope/string/paint for that purpose.
So what I'm getting form your comments is that, in an effort to make courses more challenging for pros, and especially to address the "gimme-ness" of putts that result from good drives/approaches, we should make the basket thinner INSTEAD OF adding artificial OB.
My thought is to start with design improvements, like making Circle 1 harder to get to, and I've offered a couple examples of holes that may be achieving that goal. There are several ways to make that happen, and length is only only of them (I call the main techniques WEALTH, for Width, Elevation, Angle, Length, Trouble, and Height).
I also believe we need to me more discerning about the properties we use for big events, like say DGPT and major events. If the course/property can't make the grade, then let's find a place that does. A place like Roy G has a lot to offer, but it doesn't have water features or elevation. So it may be great for hosting tournaments, just not the top tournaments.
With great properties and great design, we should be able to give top pros all they can handle without having to change the basket. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun or educational to experiment with thinner baskets, I'm just saying there are things I'd recommending doing now.
Disc golf has come a long way as a sport since I was involved, but as much progress has been made we are not to the point where you can go to Innova and say "We know you have all these connections and sponsorship tied to this place, but USDGC can't stay on this course." You can't tell Nate Heinold he has to get better courses in Eureka or Ledgestone won't make the cut. The promoters who raise the cash for the payouts still have the power, and the players play wherever the promoter who has the cash tell them to.
On the flip side, the promoters are not in this on some power trip. These guys are disc golfers, they want what is best. I'm sure Innova wishes there was a ready-to-go outstanding course they could roll into and use for USDGC. Setting up Winthrop every year is a major undertaking. I'm sure they don't do it because they want to, they do it because they have evaluated it to be their best option. So here we are.
You know better than I that progress in disc golf moves at the speed of molasses in January, but it does move. It seems to me that one day 20 years from now this will largely be an issue from the past and we will look up and think "Remember when everyone was complaining about the courses the Pro's played? It's just not going to happen fast, it will evolve slowly.
I think that's one of the reason the thinner targets gets so much play; it's something it seems like you can do for DGPT/Major events right now, not wait a couple of decades for it to evolve. Whether it will work or not is secondary to the fact that it's possible, where moving USDGC off Winthrop isn't.
When I was a kid people used to say "patience is a virtue". I think all those people are dead now. :|
Or, they just ignore half the threads in a given area for a few months; until certain posters tire of endlessly posting the same thing over and over...
...usually after having politely telling said posters, "be the change"; if you think your idea has value...
(Hi John!)
Oh, I ignore the threads.
I was thinking more of the the pro players who advocate for it. I understand the frustration; if it takes another 20-25 years for disc golf to evolve to a point where the best courses and the best payouts converge, today's players will not reap the benefits. They will be yet another generation of top disc golfers who "laid the foundation." Some people are OK with that, but others are not. Those that are not want something done and they want it done now. I understand that, but I think it puts them is a situation where they will advocate for reckless changes for the sake of making a change so they can check that "something" off their list.
They end up being big names in this sport; disc golf has always been a players sport where your reputation is earned on the course, so top players have a huge influence on what a lot of players think. A few big names pushing ideas like skinny baskets can elevate that idea up in some people's minds as "the answer" instead of the very untested "what if" idea it is.
Oh...Hi, John. Sorry for mucking up your thread.
this post provides realistic hope.
consider Golf and its evolution, which encompasses hundreds of years. imagine how many iterations of various ideas they've tried over the years, all with tremendous resources. when visiting a private Golf course, like Augusta, it's easy to forget the army of men who've been teeming over that property for decades to produce the result you see - much of which is invisible to the untrained eye, certainly in terms of the decision making process.
personally, i believe credentials imply quite a bit, mainly status (status also implies better compensation & barriers to entry) - often they're the only thing that will get one's foot in the door, but in this particular field, they aren't the be-all & end-all of competence. few Golf course designers, certainly historically, have such certifications, almost no pro-player designers do. moreover, as of the current date almost no disc golf course designers do. many personality types find it difficult to work on projects whose fruit they might never realize - i say this to waylay anxieties about choosing a more professional path and the delayed gratification that might entail. certainly everyone has something to offer, from the fellow who gets fired up, takes the bull by the horn to build HIS vision of disc golf, to the fellow going for certifications in the hope of broader societal acceptance. just do it.
Billipo
Birdie Member
pymatuning #14
sorry bringing thread back many posts...just an update
reminder - 90 degree dogleg with bad briars
Club had workday, a perennial visitor to the big briar bushes offered to do the clearing (4 hours worth). basically the 2 large bushes prior to the ditch were removed, ditch was cleared, the growth protruding into the fairway was removed with exception of a non-threatening bush. In addition a trail was cut behind next layer of briars (not seen from fairway which runs parallel to the fairway( no new route to pin). Park has agree to continue mowing area.
Plan to plant trees in area between cluster of trees (all but one of trees is dead) and string trimmer in photo.
Since tee boxes took 10 years to pour and just poured in 2018 moving tees was not an option, but for curiousity I did review. Thanks John for suggestions.
Road OB has been eliminated. Since road is not well defined and a pull to reach using correct skill tees, and really no advantage to using the road it is no longer an OB.
besides work completed, other take aways from input...
1.) avoid 90 degree doglegs in future designs,
2.)new planting can not just replace the briar area, but can be placed closer to tee to interrupt flight before briar area
3.) new plantings. woods are thin and other areas have tons of pine seedings. We have permission to transplant to thicken wood, before players create new routes.
4.) tall growth further down fairway may provide additional deterent to cutting corner and maintain the corner.
Thanks for everyone's input. Very useful! Bill
sorry bringing thread back many posts...just an update
reminder - 90 degree dogleg with bad briars
Club had workday, a perennial visitor to the big briar bushes offered to do the clearing (4 hours worth). basically the 2 large bushes prior to the ditch were removed, ditch was cleared, the growth protruding into the fairway was removed with exception of a non-threatening bush. In addition a trail was cut behind next layer of briars (not seen from fairway which runs parallel to the fairway( no new route to pin). Park has agree to continue mowing area.
Plan to plant trees in area between cluster of trees (all but one of trees is dead) and string trimmer in photo.
Since tee boxes took 10 years to pour and just poured in 2018 moving tees was not an option, but for curiousity I did review. Thanks John for suggestions.
Road OB has been eliminated. Since road is not well defined and a pull to reach using correct skill tees, and really no advantage to using the road it is no longer an OB.
besides work completed, other take aways from input...
1.) avoid 90 degree doglegs in future designs,
2.)new planting can not just replace the briar area, but can be placed closer to tee to interrupt flight before briar area
3.) new plantings. woods are thin and other areas have tons of pine seedings. We have permission to transplant to thicken wood, before players create new routes.
4.) tall growth further down fairway may provide additional deterent to cutting corner and maintain the corner.
Thanks for everyone's input. Very useful! Bill
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,841
I'm thinking you might have been able to auction off that priviledge.
tahoe
Newbie
BOTTOM-UP meets TOP-DOWN
CurmudgeonDWINDLE
I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I took the liberty of pulling up your dgcr profile and thought it apropos to pull up some of your own words:
My background is in golf course construction and high-end horticulture and my aim in reviewing DGCs is for the designer or 'would-be' designer. Many of my comments will address the needs of this individual in shaping the experience of the player. For example, while I may ramble on about the size and overall design of a park (or park system), appropriate site selection is a critical factor for anyone wishing to undertake this task. ....
The fact is that money solves many problems, makes many things possible, but for the most part, DGCs are primarily 'paid' for through volunteer efforts and monies (rarely tax dollars). No one (yet, that I am aware of) in disc golf has $5 million just to build the course - let alone set up a business structure, wallow through the zoning/permitting maze, acquire land, etc (of course, there are a few exceptional individuals with uncommon access to resources, but you get my point). This doesn't mean that finished products cannot be of the highest quality - it means criticism needs to be tempered with 'real world' realities.
I know this was probably written some years ago... Certainly I still think its right to say disc golf courses do not attract millions of dollars in tax money, designer fees, grants, yearly budgets, etc... But there are now MANY examples where money/resources in 100,000s is being allocated to disc golf facilities, like our Carson Ridge project and several of John Houck's projects for example. And it shows! You're right. Disc golf is really a grassroots phenomenon up till now where volunteers have gotten it done, and this cannot be denied, nor should it be ignored. But imo it's really time for bottom-up (grassroots) to meet top-down (professionals) in the middle. Mountain Biking is a perfect example of success. The grassroots users have worked with Forest Service and professional trail-builders to create amazing and sustainable biking experiences on public wilderness lands. The disc golfers (users) need to realize that their activism and volunteerism impact public lands and there is responsibility that comes with that, as well as opportunity as the MTB example shows!
CurmudgeonDWINDLE
I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I took the liberty of pulling up your dgcr profile and thought it apropos to pull up some of your own words:
My background is in golf course construction and high-end horticulture and my aim in reviewing DGCs is for the designer or 'would-be' designer. Many of my comments will address the needs of this individual in shaping the experience of the player. For example, while I may ramble on about the size and overall design of a park (or park system), appropriate site selection is a critical factor for anyone wishing to undertake this task. ....
The fact is that money solves many problems, makes many things possible, but for the most part, DGCs are primarily 'paid' for through volunteer efforts and monies (rarely tax dollars). No one (yet, that I am aware of) in disc golf has $5 million just to build the course - let alone set up a business structure, wallow through the zoning/permitting maze, acquire land, etc (of course, there are a few exceptional individuals with uncommon access to resources, but you get my point). This doesn't mean that finished products cannot be of the highest quality - it means criticism needs to be tempered with 'real world' realities.
I know this was probably written some years ago... Certainly I still think its right to say disc golf courses do not attract millions of dollars in tax money, designer fees, grants, yearly budgets, etc... But there are now MANY examples where money/resources in 100,000s is being allocated to disc golf facilities, like our Carson Ridge project and several of John Houck's projects for example. And it shows! You're right. Disc golf is really a grassroots phenomenon up till now where volunteers have gotten it done, and this cannot be denied, nor should it be ignored. But imo it's really time for bottom-up (grassroots) to meet top-down (professionals) in the middle. Mountain Biking is a perfect example of success. The grassroots users have worked with Forest Service and professional trail-builders to create amazing and sustainable biking experiences on public wilderness lands. The disc golfers (users) need to realize that their activism and volunteerism impact public lands and there is responsibility that comes with that, as well as opportunity as the MTB example shows!
Well said throughout, Curly, and amen to that last part especially. Good to hear from you, as always.
This 'team' oriented approach already exists in Golf, if for nothing else than nobody's God.
On the 'environmental' side of things, Golf's penetration into the universities has enabled them to mitigate their poor image with activist types, as well as develop 'new' grasses, techniques and like to save resources. One example would be a private course in Austin, TX, where before any chemicals are applied, plant tissue tests are taken to confirm that application's appropriateness. Another would be the famous assay that proved water exiting a golf course was actually cleaner/purer than when it entered. Golf pioneered the cooperative sanctuary program with Audubon. On the construction side, and in many other industries just look at the extensive use of contractors to complete specific pieces of the overall job.
This is just the way the world works these days with so many concerned stakeholders, or in some ways the age of the intrepid, rugged individual is over. Point being, as I've suggested many times, look to Golf for precedent and for the younger set who are interested - don't be intimidated by the already established hierarchy, either in disc golf or the world at large - all the great ideas arise from outside the mainstream 'system'. I would add that a land manager is just like everyone else in this respect: Nobody wants to pay and everyone wants something for less...if you give it free that's your problem.
On the 'environmental' side of things, Golf's penetration into the universities has enabled them to mitigate their poor image with activist types, as well as develop 'new' grasses, techniques and like to save resources. One example would be a private course in Austin, TX, where before any chemicals are applied, plant tissue tests are taken to confirm that application's appropriateness. Another would be the famous assay that proved water exiting a golf course was actually cleaner/purer than when it entered. Golf pioneered the cooperative sanctuary program with Audubon. On the construction side, and in many other industries just look at the extensive use of contractors to complete specific pieces of the overall job.
This is just the way the world works these days with so many concerned stakeholders, or in some ways the age of the intrepid, rugged individual is over. Point being, as I've suggested many times, look to Golf for precedent and for the younger set who are interested - don't be intimidated by the already established hierarchy, either in disc golf or the world at large - all the great ideas arise from outside the mainstream 'system'. I would add that a land manager is just like everyone else in this respect: Nobody wants to pay and everyone wants something for less...if you give it free that's your problem.
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Agreed, Scott. I did a piece about that a couple years ago for the PDGA magazine. These days money and staff come first; course quality is further down the list.
Amen.
All true. But there are things we can do now. Three thoughts:
1. We can improve the venues we are currently using. With very little time or budget, we were able to make some small but significant improvements to the Hornets Nest course for the DGPT Championships last year. "We" in this case was the Charlotte Club, DGPT leadership, and me. Other courses that hold tournaments for elite players can get similar upgrades.
2. When the main sponsorship money comes from a national source, rather than a local source, the tour organizers can influence where that money goes. I know we've all thought that we've been on the verge of big outside sponsorship for 20 years, and every year we think, "This is the year." I will just say that, from what I've seen and heard lately, I believe we are very close.
3. The Memorial will not be on the DGPT Elite Tour next year. So events with money and legacy are not always a lock for future years.
Since you mentioned it, can we agree that patience gets a raw deal when it comes to aphorisms? Is there a single good saying about this important character value? No "A stitch in time saves nine." No "You can lead a horse to water..." or "... gathers no moss." The best-known saying about patience is "Patience is a virtue." Maybe "Good things come to those who wait." It's not fair.
Anyway, back in the DG world, there are substantive things we can do that are less radical and less unpredictable than making baskets thinner. The longest journey starts ...
I leaned a long time ago that no matter how many beers we had at the picnic table after league and complained about what we thought the people running disc golf were doing, they were doing the best that they could. Innova is a bunch of disc golfers. The PDGA is a bunch of disc golfers. Discraft is a bunch of Frisbee freaks. All of those people actually want what we want, because we were all just a bunch of Frisbee junkies. People like you are always working on whatever issues we have, have thought of every multi-beer picnic table idea before we did, and if it was a good and viable idea it would be happening. If it wasn't happening, it was either no good or not viable.
The "less radical and less unpredictable" ideas are less noticeable. Some people just are not happy unless you make a big splash. I'm pretty content to sit back and watch the ripples; you guys have already pushed us a lot farther than I thought we would ever get in my lifetime.
