Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Emoney]

Fascinating question, Eric. I've seen that you posted on the current thread called "So you want to make the basket smaller for Pros? Here's how we do it." (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136565), so you may have seen that I posted a couple times there. I also wrote an article about the debate in the PDGA's "Disc Golfer" magazine, which came out in April/May last year.

The way I understand the advocates of smaller baskets is this: the whole point of smaller baskets would be so that we don't have to change the way courses are designed. I haven't really thought about it the way you framed it, but off the top of my head I don't see a reason to change OB placement -- or maybe you're thinking smaller baskets would raise scoring, so we wouldn't need as much rope OB?

Also, if you have ideas on pin placements with smaller/thinner baskets, I'd be curious to hear them.

As I've said, I would prefer to use design solutions rather than changing the basket.

Thx for the reply. I have been involved in disc golf for probably 25+ years and the evolution im seeing on the pro side of the sport concerns me for the future challenge of disc golf.
We have amazing pieces of land but every year these heavily wooded courses add string and paint to make them more challenging for pros. Or they put the basket impossibly close to o.b. or make the landing area thinner.

Natural o.b. no longer exists and a 40ft putt is routine.
We dont even have a influx of athletes in our game yet, its still a baby.
Take Roy G in austin for example. That course is beautiful and challenging but if the pro tour played it on a regular basis as-is. I predict someone would shoot 18 under within 5yrs....
So we would add string and paint to add challenge when i think a precision 40ft putt on a thinner basket would do the trick.(and see below)

Just thinking big picture. The game is fine now but i want to raise the ceiling for challenge in a more natural way.

Also, change pin placements each day of the tourney but thats another topic...i think these 2 things would go a long way to having a cleaner look to our game while accomplishing the string/o.b. effect.

There is a ton of examples i could add but i dont want to bore the forum anymore than i have lol.

 

[roblee]

is there actually a lot of compaction from DG players, or is it more surface wear exposing the root systems?

Those forces work in concert.

 

[Jugular]

Those forces work in concert.

What is the best way to add resilience to windthrow for a lone tree in a fairway then? Would it be to add scrub, bushes or rough around the base at a width dependent on the tree species and conditions? Or is the only way to have many other mature trees in a stand?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

What is the best way to add resilience to windthrow for a lone tree in a fairway then? Would it be to add scrub, bushes or rough around the base at a width dependent on the tree species and conditions? Or is the only way to have many other mature trees in a stand?

A tree is basically a lever. The taller the tree, the longer the lever... and the more torque can be exerted on the root system anchoring it.

Wind that hits it higher up will create far more torque to pull it out of the ground than the same amount of wind down near the ground. Planting shrubbery near the base won't do anything to alleviate winds from hitting it up high, which are much more likely to topple a tree.

I see a lot of trees toppled where the ground is soft/saturated due to standing water. I suppose some plants could help if they are particularly "thirsty" and soak up all that excess water so the tree roots are able to get a better hold in the ground.

 

[Mando]

I apologize for making my previous posts. I was completely out of line to phrase it the way I did. I hope John will accept my apology, as I have the utmost respect for him. I am keenly interested in sustainability, which I do think gets lost in then shuffle, when we talk about good course design.

 

[Jugular]

A tree is basically a lever. The taller the tree, the longer the lever... and the more torque can be exerted on the root system anchoring it.

Wind that hits it higher up will create far more torque to pull it out of the ground than the same amount of wind down near the ground. Planting shrubbery near the base won't do anything to alleviate winds from hitting it up high, which are much more likely to topple a tree.

I see a lot of trees toppled where the ground is soft/saturated due to standing water. I suppose some plants could help if they are particularly "thirsty" and soak up all that excess water so the tree roots are able to get a better hold in the ground.

Sure but the wind doesn't just hit the tree at the top, there is pressure applied all the way down the tree, with less and less effect because, as you say, leverage. So by reducing some of the other wind impacting a tree it might be enough to prevent windthrow, or at least increase it's resilience (there's surely always a strong enough wind that will bring down a whole forest full of trees). Also creating turbulence in the wind at the base can have impacts on the force of the wind higher up the tree.

I did a tiny bit of reading which suggests that trees that are exposed to wind early (or at least at the right stages) in their growing phase grow their roots to account for prevailing wind conditions (and given what I have observed I would guess regulate their height too). Obviously the roots are what counters the force of the wind. I was thinking having other strong rooting plants nearby may increase the effectiveness of the root system the tree has already got, both by reducing compaction at the base of the tree (by reducing footfall) and by reducing compaction through the action of their growth combined breaking up the soil more.

Drying the soil out (or at least preventing standing water) is another interesting suggestion as that too reduces compaction.

Another aspect is the effect of mycelium on tree health, by having other trees around to trade nutrients via the mycelium network it can have a big impact on a tree's longevity and resilience to poor conditions. I'm fairly sure mycelium also has an impact on compaction.

So for all those reasons I suspect having even only shrubs at tree base would improve resilience to windthrow, but perhaps it's a trivial effect, or there are effects running counter to these.

 

[goosefraba1]

Serious question here, why not just plant a fast growing windscreen tree like a Green Giant Arborvitae? I understand that they are a hybrid tree, and depending on location this might not be the best bet due to not wanting to introduce non-native type plants, but otherwise seems like it could be a good bet for more wide open course designs. They grow up to 5ft a year, top out at 40ft tall by 6-8ft wide. As long as the design accounts for how wide the tree will be in 5-10 years, seems like a decent solution for protecting the original tree or just a stand-alone tree for design.

Sure but the wind doesn't just hit the tree at the top, there is pressure applied all the way down the tree, with less and less effect because, as you say, leverage. So by reducing some of the other wind impacting a tree it might be enough to prevent windthrow, or at least increase it's resilience (there's surely always a strong enough wind that will bring down a whole forest full of trees). Also creating turbulence in the wind at the base can have impacts on the force of the wind higher up the tree.

I did a tiny bit of reading which suggests that trees that are exposed to wind early (or at least at the right stages) in their growing phase grow their roots to account for prevailing wind conditions (and given what I have observed I would guess regulate their height too). Obviously the roots are what counters the force of the wind. I was thinking having other strong rooting plants nearby may increase the effectiveness of the root system the tree has already got, both by reducing compaction at the base of the tree (by reducing footfall) and by reducing compaction through the action of their growth combined breaking up the soil more.

Drying the soil out (or at least preventing standing water) is another interesting suggestion as that too reduces compaction.

Another aspect is the effect of mycelium on tree health, by having other trees around to trade nutrients via the mycelium network it can have a big impact on a tree's longevity and resilience to poor conditions. I'm fairly sure mycelium also has an impact on compaction.

So for all those reasons I suspect having even only shrubs at tree base would improve resilience to windthrow, but perhaps it's a trivial effect, or there are effects running counter to these.

 

[txmxer]

Serious question here, why not just plant a fast growing windscreen tree like a Green Giant Arborvitae? I understand that they are a hybrid tree, and depending on location this might not be the best bet due to not wanting to introduce non-native type plants, but otherwise seems like it could be a good bet for more wide open course designs. They grow up to 5ft a year, top out at 40ft tall by 6-8ft wide. As long as the design accounts for how wide the tree will be in 5-10 years, seems like a decent solution for protecting the original tree or just a stand-alone tree for design.

They require a lot of water on a regular basis. Might not be an option due to the effort required to establish and maintain them.

 

[goosefraba1]

They require a lot of water on a regular basis. Might not be an option due to the effort required to establish and maintain them.

That may be true. Here in Southern Ohio it rains almost as much as Seattle. So, they really don't take much to get established here if you plant in Spring or Fall.

 

[Tim_the_Enchanter]

We're probably drier here in Seattle in the summer than in Ohio, but I can tell you that we still would need to water for at least a year to get a tree established. I've seen a few trees planted by well meaning volunteers that looked great for a few months but were brown soon after.

 

[Mando]

Mando, the idea that wider fairways on a course like Jackson might lead to windthrow problems is a new one to me, so I'm eager to know what you have to say.

I am working on a course where, in certain areas, they have a species of tall, thin, vulnerable pines, and I understand that we will likely lose some of those trees over time due to wind. I've designed those fairways around the existing hardwoods to prepare for that possibility, and as long as the pines last, they are a bonus.

Haven't heard of any issues at Jackson since we started clearing fairways in 2005/2006. But, as I said, I'm always wanting to learn and to hear new perspectives, so I'm looking forward to hearing your concerns. Thanks.

Well, after practicing forestry for 10 years in a very similar forest type, I can tell you from experience that when the stocking gets down to a certain level, the trees are much more vulnerable without the density to form a wind break. When you factor in Augusta's proximity to the ocean and the effects of hurricanes, I think the risk is greatly increased. Again, I apologize for bringing this up in an unfriendly manner. The design for Jackson is great, by the way, but I think it is prudent to leave more trees than a design may dictate. It's not just the wider fairways, it's also the wide spacing of the trees that were left.

 

[roblee]

What is the best way to add resilience to windthrow for a lone tree in a fairway then? Would it be to add scrub, bushes or rough around the base at a width dependent on the tree species and conditions? Or is the only way to have many other mature trees in a stand?

So many variables but lone trees are the norm in urban areas. Shrubs at the base won't help with high winds but they would discourage concentrated people activity which would prevent root crown damage. Shrubs would use extra water & nutrients but probably only a factor during drought. A few ideas to protect a lone tree could be: don't dig or trench within the drip zone at minimum; don't let water pool for long periods; direct paths & roads away; ; don't pile soil or mulch around the base; don't constantly bang it with discs.

 

[johnrhouck]

I hope John will accept my apology, as I have the utmost respect for him.

Apology accepted, of course. Don't give it another thought. Thank you.

Well, after practicing forestry for 10 years in a very similar forest type, I can tell you from experience that when the stocking gets down to a certain level, the trees are much more vulnerable without the density to form a wind break. When you factor in Augusta's proximity to the ocean and the effects of hurricanes, I think the risk is greatly increased. Again, I apologize for bringing this up in an unfriendly manner. The design for Jackson is great, by the way, but I think it is prudent to leave more trees than a design may dictate. It's not just the wider fairways, it's also the wide spacing of the trees that were left.

I appreciate your insights and the value of your experience. So help me understand. When you say "wide spacing of trees that are left," what exactly do you mean? Something like the screenshot of #1 here? And do you think wider fairways and wide spacing are two independent issues, or do you think they work together to exacerbate the risk you see?

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Used to be disc courses were all subtractive affairs except for tees, equipment and the like.
Frankly, I'm edified someone has budget and desire to add trees. Maybe that's some kind of a reward for earning that particular opportunity...

On another level, it's actually a profound thing to plant a tree whose shade you may never know (or your 'perfect' drive will never hit)...and it brings one back right to earth to also understand many people in the future will just take it for granted...

 

[elmexdela]

its really cool watchin a course change over the years

how some major trees fall or disease out

rarely new ones get planted

i can think of a few courses ive played where if they were to plant 3-5 trees total the course would improve at least half a point in rating

 

[roblee]

Here is a southeastern forest example example that applies to the IDGC. At Piedmont National Wildlife Refuge (hour south of Atlanta) we manage 35,000 acres of Loblolly Pine, pine-oak woodland, grassland patches, and bottomland hardwood as even-aged stands on 100 year rotation as Red-cockaded Woodpecker habitat. Gradually the stands are thinned to provide an open canopy. Frequent prescribed fires kept the understory fairly open as preferred by the woodpeckers. Final harvest of a stand was a clearcut leaving a few healthy "seed trees" for natural regeneration. These lone trees were about one per acre IIRC and blow down was not an issue. This is a well established practice for managing southeastern pine forests for wildlife. Commercial forests are managed on a much shorter cycle. What pictures & videos I've seen of WR Jackson I'd think the pine stands are fine. One big threat there would be a wildfire unless prescribed fire is part of the management plan. Of course all bets are off with hurricanes & tornados.

 

[roblee]

Looks like Sally will slam IDGC soon. Unfortunate but be sure to evaluate how the forest handles high winds & saturated soil.

 

[Mando]

Apology accepted, of course. Don't give it another thought. Thank you.



I appreciate your insights and the value of your experience. So help me understand. When you say "wide spacing of trees that are left," what exactly do you mean? Something like the screenshot of #1 here? And do you think wider fairways and wide spacing are two independent issues, or do you think they work together to exacerbate the risk you see?

Thanks for the picture John, but unfortunately like every other picture on DGCR, it was taken around the basket or from the tee pad. Neither of these are the problem, the stocking is fine. It's the huge park-like landing areas that makes the course vulnerable, IMO.

 

[Mando]

I always want to be improving as a designer, and part of that is education. Always happy to learn something new -- in fact I've learned several things in the last 24 hours, particularly from a contractor who runs excavators, dozers, etc.

If so, please share and educate us. Intrigued by your comment about "next level".

 

[BogeyNoMore]

oops. Post deleted.