Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Casey 1988]

Move the pin so the basket is behind the little berm/hill, that should solve the worst cases of going onto the road. I bet you can still find a way to make the basket challenging if the hole is a tad shorter then originally made.

 

[johnrhouck]

Bill, nice job getting photos on short notice. Very helpful.

It sure does look like removing that left tree would give players incentive and opportunity to play left, and I'd imagine fewer drives off the blue tee would wind up in the dreaded briars. Could be a great start.

It seems like the same exact shot that used to end up in the briars would still be possible, even if it's less likely. So moving the tee to the right would probably help. But none of that really does anything for players using the White or Red tees.

So, my #3 solution is to stop shots before they get themselves into trouble. A 100' long barrier could "protect" the briars (long green line). As I said previously, I'd prefer a biological barrier. But there's probably a simpler and more elegant solution.

My diagram shows two carefully-placed trees that would need to be big enough to do the job (meaning probably at least 10' tall and at least 4' canopies and a thick enough branch structure to stop shots, even after they lost their leaves). You know what kind of shots run out of steam early and fade into the briars or maybe turn too hard and hit the briars -- those are the shots the need to be stopped by the new trees. You want to force shots left enough so that even if they peter out early, they won't reach the briars.

I think you'd also want to plant them as far from the dogleg as possible. I'm showing mine as maybe 150' to the dogleg. That means most people would be able to hit that second shot to the corner – or even a bit past it – pretty regularly. If you can put those trees another 50' closer to the tees, you'd make that shot a bit less NAGS-y.

So, there you have a bit to chew on. Let us all know how it turns out.

 

[johnrhouck]

John
I caught a you tube interview recently where you talked about a "next level" disc golf course. What do you envision exactly ?

Working on an answer for you next, Mando. Spoiler alert: I'm not ready to discuss "exactly," but I can give you "conceptually." Thanks.

 

[Emoney]

Hey john, not to get into the weeds but some of the top pros in our sport talk about how they would like see thinner baskets on the course...

Im curious how that would affect whole design if we had thinner baskets? How would you approach o.b. and pin placements with bullseye type baskets?

 

[Monocacy]

Hi John, anything new on Agape Farms in Shirleysburg, PA?

Thanks!

 

[Mando]

Working on an answer for you next, Mando. Spoiler alert: I'm not ready to discuss "exactly," but I can give you "conceptually." Thanks.

I'm not holding my breath, but the band is playing Pomp and Circumstance... it's ok if you don't have an answer.

 

[Riverdog]

I'm not holding my breath, but the band is playing Pomp and Circumstance... it's ok if you don't have an answer.

He's got an answer, 'cause he is the man. [emoji106][emoji41]


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[Mando]

He's got an answer, 'cause he is the man. [emoji106][emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, unless he has an understanding of forest ecosystems, he has no answer at all, unless it's a wide open field...

 

[Mando]

Actually, unless he has an understanding of forest ecosystems, he has no answer at all, unless it's a wide open field...

For example; spacing out trees to such an extreme on Jackson, just invites windthrow down the road. That's the problem with course designers, it's about the present.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

For example; spacing out trees to such an extreme on Jackson, just invites windthrow down the road. That's the problem with course designers, it's about the present.

the first rule of landscape architecture is to think 25 years down the road, but 'the future' doesn't feed the bulldog...which is to say nothing about the 'cut and paste' mentality which has infected everything in the world of men, including play field design...

 

[roblee]

"Actually, unless he has an understanding of forest ecosystems, he has no answer at all, unless it's a wide open field..."[QUOTE}

and

For example; spacing out trees to such an extreme on Jackson, just invites windthrow down the road. That's the problem with course designers, it's about the present.

Obviously, you have strong opinions regarding forest tree windthrow and are hasty to blast a respected forum member to make a point. I agree that course designers and courses would benefit from more knowledge of ecosystem dynamics. You suggest that stand density is the primary contributor to windthrow? What about soil type, slope, root damage, compaction, erosion, siltation, disease, extreme events, moisture levels, etc.

Seems this could be an educational opportunity with a kinder gentler approach. No?

 

[johnrhouck]

I agree that course designers and courses would benefit from more knowledge of ecosystem dynamics.

I completely agree, Rob. I always want to be improving as a designer, and part of that is education. Always happy to learn something new -- in fact I've learned several things in the last 24 hours, particularly from a contractor who runs excavators, dozers, etc.

Seems this could be an educational opportunity with a kinder gentler approach. No?

I appreciate you stepping in to say something. I don't let it bother me when someone comes after me personally, but I do think the world would be a better place if we could all be a bit more civil and respectful online. So, like you, I will take the opportunity to remind people that we can benefit from moderating our tone and choosing our words to express disagreement but not contempt.

Anyway...

 

[johnrhouck]

For example; spacing out trees to such an extreme on Jackson, just invites windthrow down the road.

Mando, the idea that wider fairways on a course like Jackson might lead to windthrow problems is a new one to me, so I'm eager to know what you have to say.

I am working on a course where, in certain areas, they have a species of tall, thin, vulnerable pines, and I understand that we will likely lose some of those trees over time due to wind. I've designed those fairways around the existing hardwoods to prepare for that possibility, and as long as the pines last, they are a bonus.

Haven't heard of any issues at Jackson since we started clearing fairways in 2005/2006. But, as I said, I'm always wanting to learn and to hear new perspectives, so I'm looking forward to hearing your concerns. Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hi John, anything new on Agape Farms in Shirleysburg, PA?

Thanks!

Funny you should ask. I'm happy to report that work at Agape has kicked into high gear, and I'll probably start posting new photos on Instagram and Facebook in the next couple weeks. Several of the fairways are close to done, and the crews have done stellar work -- they look amazing. I was very pleasantly surprised.

Since you're not far away, if you send me your e-mail address, I'll add you to the update/invitation list. Thanks.

 

[Tim_the_Enchanter]

"Actually, unless he has an understanding of forest ecosystems, he has no answer at all, unless it's a wide open field..."[QUOTE}

and



Obviously, you have strong opinions regarding forest tree windthrow and are hasty to blast a respected forum member to make a point. I agree that course designers and courses would benefit from more knowledge of ecosystem dynamics. You suggest that stand density is the primary contributor to windthrow? What about soil type, slope, root damage, compaction, erosion, siltation, disease, extreme events, moisture levels, etc.

Seems this could be an educational opportunity with a kinder gentler approach. No?

I think compaction and erosion are the primary factors working against the longevity of disc golf courses. I see some of the premier courses are liberal with wood chips on greens, but often the fairways are bare, and as a result turn to hardpan from all the foot traffic. For instance, watching footage from BRP this year, I noticed that a lot of the trees on the famous hole 4 looked like they were in decline, and I would bet that's from compaction.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey john, not to get into the weeds but some of the top pros in our sport talk about how they would like see thinner baskets on the course...

Im curious how that would affect whole design if we had thinner baskets? How would you approach o.b. and pin placements with bullseye type baskets?

Fascinating question, Eric. I've seen that you posted on the current thread called "So you want to make the basket smaller for Pros? Here's how we do it." (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136565), so you may have seen that I posted a couple times there. I also wrote an article about the debate in the PDGA's "Disc Golfer" magazine, which came out in April/May last year.

The way I understand the advocates of smaller baskets is this: the whole point of smaller baskets would be so that we don't have to change the way courses are designed. I haven't really thought about it the way you framed it, but off the top of my head I don't see a reason to change OB placement -- or maybe you're thinking smaller baskets would raise scoring, so we wouldn't need as much rope OB?

Also, if you have ideas on pin placements with smaller/thinner baskets, I'd be curious to hear them.

As I've said, I would prefer to use design solutions rather than changing the basket. For people who didn't see it, I'll paste one of my posts from that smaller basket thread, and we'll leave it at that for now. Here it is:

88% C1X is too easy. No drama, no excitement, not interesting. It's extremely hard to make courses to push players out to 50-60 feet.

It IS extremely hard, but it is still possible to make good, fair holes where players hit C1 less than 20% of the time and hit C2 less than 60% of the time. Here are two examples from the recent Mid-America Open at Harmony Bends, with pins in the Gold position.

#11 is a par four: https://udisclive.com/live/midameric...rseStats&d=MPO

And #14 is a par three: https://udisclive.com/live/midameric...rseStats&d=MPO

Now, to be fair, the field was not all Gold-level players, and the conditions weren't perfect, but you get the idea. And hole like this could be toughened up a bit as needed to make sure that only the most exemplary play gets a C1 putt. And where getting to 50' or 60' requires great shots. This kind of design is one potential way to make putting more interesting and to reduce round scores.

 

[roblee]

John, The interface of root matrix and soil is a BIG determiner of tree stability. Many trees have a tap root but it's not the anchor many think it is. The relatively shallow lateral root plate with associated descending roots provide most of a tree's stability. Much like a pedestal table. Here is one link that explains that in an easy to understand format with pics & illustrations. Disc golf holes often rely on a single tree to "make" the design. It sucks to lose one of those but sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent it. It's good to know what you can do but both subtle and catastrophic forces are always in play.

https://wwv.isa-arbor.com/events/schedule/resources/167/Moore_WindthrowTrees.pdf

 

[johnrhouck]

... Here is one link that explains that in an easy to understand format with pics & illustrations.

Thanks for the information and the link, Rob. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Disc golf holes often rely on a single tree to "make" the design.

That is true. I've learned over the years to include, whenever, possible, "insurance trees" that can take over the job if a key tree goes down for any reason. Or to have a backup plan (like a basket move). I did both of those today, in fact.

It sucks to lose one of those but sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent it. It's good to know what you can do but both subtle and catastrophic forces are always in play.

Right again. We just do what we can and hope for the best. Selah, Hillcrest Farm, and Nantucket have all lost substantial trees to storms, but the layouts weren't really affected, which was fortunate. As far as I know, there haven't been any issues at Jackson yet, either.

Thanks.

 

[txmxer]

is there actually a lot of compaction from DG players, or is it more surface wear exposing the root systems?

 

[Steve West]

is there actually a lot of compaction from DG players, or is it more surface wear exposing the root systems?

I designed a course in an area that was completely protected from human foot traffic for many years. Walking on the soil in the woods was like stepping on cake. Probably all the soil you've ever seen was already quite compacted.