Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[osbogosley]

Worlds biggest birthday

Happy 50th, sheesh, Got another ace Friday just after seeing Taco on his way to Wimberly. I told him to say happy birthday to you from me. I donate the ace to you. Keep on trucking.

 

[esdubya]

Standard Deviation in Design

Hi John,

I was wondering if you have a standard deviation in Pro level scores you shoot for when designing a hole? Could you please share with us your target range for score standard deviation if you have one?

Thanks! Scott

 

[johnrhouck]

Great article (dumb holes). But it made me think...

I recently got to shadow the pro women at the Atlanta Open and yes, a lot of holes do turn out to be dumb for them but I also noticed that, like you said, they are used to long approaches and putts. I would dare say that save for the very top of male pros, these women are better, leaps and bounds better, then the men with their approaches and putts. (Certainly better than their "equally" rated male counterparts.)

If your idea of different tees actually caught on would it help or hurt their game? Surely their scores would lower and maybe we would see a 1000 rated woman...but would they be better golfers?

Personally I think they should have their own rating system as the equalizer...maybe because we do not have a lot of 600+ foot holes here though.

That's a great observation.

A well-designed course will require everyone (including the women you mention) to execute long and short approach shots and a variety of putts during an 18-hole round, if they're playing tees designed for their skill level. The difference is that well-executed approach shots will result in birdies, not pars.

As for developing their skills, imagine what it would be like if they were constantly throwing approach shots from landing areas specifically designed to be fair, balanced, and challenging, rather than from a "no-man's land" somewhere short of the basket.

Sounds like we need to develop more real par fours in Pennsylvania -- let's see what we can do. I know you guys have some amazing parks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Here are some interesting stats regarding top women. At PW2007, I designed the Final 9 for the top men, basically, super gold players. The top 4 women played that same layout. On every hole, at least one or more men had a different score than the other guys. This is how John and I determine if we did a good job designing temp holes for this level. On five of these nine holes, all women had the same score. So, only four holes provided a good chance for Des, who was chasing Val, to pick up a shot.

Amen, CK.

Another study from PW2001 compared groups of Women, Masters/GM and Open Men who all averaged around a 950 rating. All groups averaged the same score on the course being evaluated which is what you would hope is the case if they average the same rating. However, the course was half open and half wooded holes. If you went hole-by-hole, the women and older guys shot a little better than the young guys in the woods. The young guys shot better than the women and older guys on the open holes. So if a course is balanced, players with similar ratings will shoot the same. If it's more open, the younger guys of the same rating will likely do a little better than the women and older guys. Just the opposite for wooded courses.

That's an important finding to keep in mind. In this case, the data are in line with what we'd expect intuitively, I think.

 

[tallpaul]

^^^^Talent level of all groups keeps increasing, so I think this will probably hole true; though, for average players, the long open holes are favoring younger players more and more. High speed plastic, of course, also plays into this.

 

[johnrhouck]

Is having a raised pin thats above someones head (i.e. Hornets nest) too gimicky?

ok thank you very much. is there a case where you wouldnt want to have a specialized basket? i mean like on an island or an elevated basket.

Solomon, thanks for your original question and your followup.

When I initially answered that "one man's gimmick is another man's innovation," I meant that well-intentioned people will disagree on where the line is between what's acceptable and what's too artificial or too "ungolflike." (Wow, that last word is pretty unenglishlike.)

At this point, I think the conventional wisdom is that the theory and practice of course design are still somewhat "young," and that we're at a stage when we should encourage designers to try new things. I pretty much agree with that stance.

My personal preference is for structures and procedures that appear as natural as possible, and I have a low tolerance for things that seem artificial. But that's just my taste, and it doesn't mean that someone else's tastes are wrong or inferior.

In the case of elevated baskets, I don't think I've done it on any of my courses, but I think elevated baskets are a fair attempt to solve some of the problems with putting in disc golf.

I think you can make a strong case that driving, and sometimes approaching, is much more interesting in disc golf than in traditional golf. There's so much more you can do with a disc than with a golf ball. And our designers can offer a lot more strategy options off the tee and in the fairway. But I think that putting in ball golf is a lot more interesting and challenging, and it requires more thought. Most of all, it's far more dramatic to watch. So I have some of my own ideas on how we might bridge that gap, and we can discuss those when I've developed them further.

Are there times when I wouldn't want to use a "specialized" basket? Absolutely. Not sure I can give you a rule of thumb for that, though. I hope my answer above gives you a sense of what I prefer.

Thanks,
John

 

[solomon.trenton]

Thanks John. That is exactly what I was wondrering. I tend to agree with you. But there is one hole In Cranbury Park in CT where the basket is anchored in a large rock. I think this is a great use if an elevated pin, and the only one I have seen.

 

[Kwick]

Thanks John. That is exactly what I was wondrering. I tend to agree with you. But there is one hole In Cranbury Park in CT where the basket is anchored in a large rock. I think this is a great use if an elevated pin, and the only one I have seen.

picture?

 

[optidiscic]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/1162/1d3be555.jpg

Heres another

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/20/034b2c4d.jpg

 

[kenjiac]

How's this for elevated pin. The base of the pin is probably ~7-8 ft up.
I soo miss woodstock rocks

 

[1978]

Brackett's Bluff #10 in Davidson NC and Renaissance #8 Charlotte, NC both have baskets mounted into rocks.

Bracketts is no longer listed here but here is Renny.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/587/edfa9cfc.jpg

also to further the conversation of basket locations here are 2 in 1 picture.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/587/75fcddb2.jpg

 

[solomon.trenton]

picture?

hole 9 at Cranbury

 

[Dave242]

I am not a moderator, but I suggest (as is the custom on these types of threads) we keep this thread on topic by only having posts here that are direct communication to and from Houck.

Plenty of good topics will most likely be spawned from the legit posts here, but there is nothing stopping anyone of us from starting individual threads on those topics.

 

[grodney]

While we wait patiently for the return of the King (or his Queen), I offer the following from the archives:

ObCourseDesign: Hole 1 - Circ Hill. A great hole.

 

[grodney]

A Houck Drive:

A different Houck Drive:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...1.606153,-93.525957&spn=0.00653,0.013937&z=17

 

[tallpaul]

Fun pics of John....Hey John, you remember one of the Wisconsin crew that came down to San Saba; and one of us (me) had hurt his ankle bad a Z Boaz and didn't even get to see San Saba's courses? Well, I did play a number of courses on that ankle after that (including one each in Mississippi and Louisana/playing forehand to plant on my other foot/ankle). Walked around on that ankle for 3 weeks after that too; hoping it was just severely sprained. Turned out to have all three of the major bones broken, and when I finally had it looked at; they ended up having to put pins and screws in there. Anyway, hope things are well for you....can't believe I didn't have you sign anything when I was nursing my ankle. Think I was in too much pain to be thinking straight!

 

[FernValleyDGC]

My course is set in the hilly Kentucky woods. Do you know a easy way to measure the elevation on a hole. How is elevation factored in when you are setting the par for a hole?

 

[johnrhouck]

When designing a course on a piece of land that is half wooded and half open, do you make a conscious attempt to stagger the holes so that the layout doesn't have, for example, the front 9 holes all open and the back 9 all wooded?

Funny you should ask. I just had to make that choice on the course I've been working on in Nantucket (get those limericks ready).

Nantucket isn't a case where the two "halves" are exceptionally different, though that does happen; as you say, there are places where 9 holes are open and 9 are wooded. In this case, I thought it was best to vary the rhythm of the round by crossing back and forth. As it stands now, you'd play 5 holes on the north side (more open with black oaks), then 10 holes south (generally tighter with mostly pines), and finish with 3 north. There were other reasons for doing it that way, and I put fewer holes on the north side, because it has more sensitive habitat for protected moths.

Like pretty much any other design choice, I'd say it ultimately depends on what you're trying to create. I can certainly see situations where you might prefer a black/white, beauty/beast, heads/tails, Jekyll/Hyde, caterpillar/moth split. I suspect that, all other things being equal, I'd probably want to mix it up if I could.

Good question.

Thanks.
John

 

[Jukeshoe]

Funny you should ask. I just had to make that choice on the course I've been working on in Nantucket (get those limericks ready).

Nantucket isn't a case where the two "halves" are exceptionally different, though that does happen; as you say, there are places where 9 holes are open and 9 are wooded. In this case, I thought it was best to vary the rhythm of the round by crossing back and forth. As it stands now, you'd play 5 holes on the north side (more open with black oaks), then 10 holes south (generally tighter with mostly pines), and finish with 3 north. There were other reasons for doing it that way, and I put fewer holes on the north side, because it has more sensitive habitat for protected moths.

Like pretty much any other design choice, I'd say it ultimately depends on what you're trying to create. I can certainly see situations where you might prefer a black/white, beauty/beast, heads/tails, Jekyll/Hyde, caterpillar/moth split. I suspect that, all other things being equal, I'd probably want to mix it up if I could.

Good question.

Thanks.
John

Thank you. I can see the reasons why some course designers choose to or are "forced" into splitting the styles between front and back 9; however, I really enjoy courses with "staggered" holes.

 

[solomon.trenton]

Nantucket, as in MA? do you have any more details on the course or ideas of when it might be done?