Assigning pars to a course without them

[Steve West]

Why is 54 "about the right total par"?

Legit question. Is it right because 18x3=54? What if every hole was par 4? Or par 2?

What type of signal are we sending new players by not telling them what people that play the game well should score? Isn't that the goal to improve? Par sets the standard, and gives us something to play towards to improve our game.

Good question. The quick answer is because it is the score that the people who play the game well should score. Some will score lower and some higher than they should. So, if all the good players scored higher or lower, it wouldn't be the score players should score - it would be too low or too high.

In this case, 54 and 48 are the scores that minimize the total difference between par and the actual scores for the Open players who are in contention for prizes. Therefore, it is the most informative par for tracking performance. It comes about as close as possible to making a birdie help a player as much as a bogie hurts.

 

[Improbably]

What type of signal are we sending new players by not telling them what people that play the game well should score? Isn't that the goal to improve? Par sets the standard, and gives us something to play towards to improve our game.

Why is that a thing?

I want all tee signs to be updated to show me what I threw last time I played the hole.

 

[ronnie]

But those pesky 400' wooded and 500'+ holes where even pro's take 4's throw that off it would seem, right?

I'm all for holes being par 3 when they should be. But when a hole is really only going to see a 2 from a player (any skill level) gets lucky and throws a 150' into the chains, it seems our "simple scoring method of everything being a 3" doesn't hold weight and could skew the value of the hole.

That's the thing I look at anyway. I will play a hole differently if it's a par 3 versus a 4 because my mentality is to shoot par. I'm not that good of a player (840 rated with only a couple tourneys this year), so maybe that is why I care and all these 1000 rated people on this thread don't care.

 

[ronnie]

Why is that a thing?

I want all tee signs to be updated to show me what I threw last time I played the hole.

Why isn't it a thing? If a standard isn't set, how do you know where your skill level is? Go shoot a 75 and tell everyone. Or go shoot a 48 and tell everyone. Which one are you more likely to do?

And you can Pull your scorecard app up and review your score from the last round. That's simple.

 

[DavidSauls]

Nemmers, see what you uncorked?

 

[Improbably]

If a standard isn't set, how do you know where your skill level is?

But if you don't know your skill level how do you know what par is?

And that's the thing; par isn't standardized in disc golf, it's relative based on player rating.

 

[ronnie]

it's relative based on player rating.

How so? I ask because I have recently helped design and build a 9 hole in our city park. It has varying lengths of holes from 175' to 418'. The last hole is 411' and is a par 4 because it's a tight line through the trees uphill. It has one 2 recorded that I know of where a guy threw a huge hyzer and bounced off trees and fell in.

Hole 5 is the longest at 418', but it's a par 3 because it is fairly straight with only a few trees sprinkled on each side initially as well as a guardian tree in front of the basket. A creek runs on the right side the entire hole as well.

I made 9 a par 4 because it is hard, and I wanted the score to reflect that. Reward the folks that can perfectly place their drive 280-290' out and then make a second perfect shot around a clump of trees to get close enough to birdie it. It's also a par 4 because I don't want to discourage newer players taking a 5 on the hole (or a 9 as I've seen once).

It may seem trivial, but most people's train of thought, regardless of whether their willing to admit it, is to beat par on the course. So why punish the newer players by standardizing the holes and saying every hole, whether it's 150' or 1250' should be a par 3. Again, that's like saying every hole in ball golf should be a par 3. How big do you think that sport would be if that were the case?

 

[DavidSauls]

Tired old argument. Is it possible that the truth is in the muddy middle---that par is neither meaningless nor important?

For what it's worth, the "all-par-3" folks aren't really talking about "par", at all, except on some shorter courses. They're talking about a scoring shorthand, "over/under 3". They should just quit using the word "par".

In the meantime, if anyone is changing the way they play a hole because of the par that's been assigned, by whomever assigned it, and whatever theory of par, they're making a huge mistake. Play the hole the way that best suits your skills, giving you the best odds for the lowest score. Measure yourself against par, if you wish. But don't let it change the way you play.

 

[ronnie]

Agreed. Your last statement is key. When I said I play for the 4, that's exactly what I meant, although I articulated it as though I was playing for a 4 because that's the par.

 

[teemkey]

If you have hole-by-hole scoring data for a number of players with different PDGA ratings, then Steve West (and other DGCR posters) have discussed methods to determine par for holes.

Otherwise, determine a target rating for your course (For example: 980 for a gold rating, 930 for blue, 880 for white). Sift through past tournaments and determine what scores produced that rating (or near). If you choose "blue" and 930 rated rounds were +4, then make the four most difficult of your course's holes par 4. Simplistic, but data based.

 

[Nemmers]

Nemmers, see what you uncorked?

Yes, sir! Got my answer, so....

opcorn:

 

[Binky Yutz]

In the war between "Par matters" and "Par is meaningless".....I have to side with Ronnie and go with Par Matters....if all holes are a Par 3, then the length and the layout of the course becomes meaningless.

I challenge any of you "all holes are a Par 3" folks to go play the IDGC courses, throwing a 54 or less on the 18 Hole Steady Ed course is possible, even probable, at 6720 feet...then go throw the 18 Hole WR Jackson course at a little over 9300 feet....that is 2600 feet longer than the Steady Ed course, but using the "all Par 3 logic" it should still be completed in 54 throws....one hole in particular is over 700' and uphill all the way to the basket...WHAT DO YOU MEAN A PAR 5, I CAN MAKE IT IN 3 EASILY....really?

Sure lowest score wins, regardless of par...but I've always believed it is ME against the COURSE, NOT the other players....and, if it is me against the course, I want to know what the course expects from me. So, a realistic PAR for that course lets me know what the standard is, and what I should strive to attain or better.

For the record, on the W R Jackson course, I shot an 86 or +17, based on the course PAR of 69. Steady Ed I shot a 68 or +6 based on the course Par of 62.

 

[DavidSauls]

W.R. Jackson is all-par-4.

 

[ronnie]

W.R. Jackson is all-par-4.

That sounds like a fun course where each hole should require two great shots to get up and down for par.

 

[Nemmers]

That sounds like a fun course where each hole should require two great shots to get up and down for par.

If you play anything like me, it does.

 

[scarpfish]

Having played Ewing a few times, I can attest that by PDGA standards there are some legit Par 4 holes there is the pins are set long. 18 especially.

But that little fact aside, I don't worry much about par.

 

[scarpfish]

I challenge any of you "all holes are a Par 3" folks to go play the IDGC courses, throwing a 54 or less on the 18 Hole Steady Ed course is possible, even probable, at 6720 feet...then go throw the 18 Hole WR Jackson course at a little over 9300 feet....that is 2600 feet longer than the Steady Ed course, but using the "all Par 3 logic" it should still be completed in 54 throws....one hole in particular is over 700' and uphill all the way to the basket...WHAT DO YOU MEAN A PAR 5, I CAN MAKE IT IN 3 EASILY....really?

Ahhh, here we go again.

I don't know of a single seasoned disc golfer who thinks all holes are par 3 in respect to how many strokes a scratch golfer should score on them. The near unanimity of people who say something along the lines of "all holes are a Par 3" mean such as a way to keep in their head scorekeeping simplified or to check scorecards in a timely manner at a league or tournament round. It has nothing to do with hole length or course difficulty.

 

[THUGNIFICENT763]

Yup, I play everything as a 3 just to make my score keeping simple. If a course has an actual physical scorecard, I play by the marked pars though.

 

[DavidSauls]

If you play anything like me, it does.

It might be all-par-5 for me!

As a scorekeeping shortcut, of course.

I am co-owner of a course that has me straddling both worlds. We have to set pars because of tournaments, and because it's generally expected, and by any of the dozen or so theories of how par should be set, we have a bunch of par-4s and par-5s. So we do, and put a lot of thought into it. It mostly comes down to how we expect good players to play a hole, tested and sometimes modified by actual results in tournaments.

At the same time, all-par-3 is ingrained in me from many years of playing courses that were truly all-par-3 (unless you acknowledge the existence of par-2s). So I use that scorekeeping shortcut, and during a round if you ask me my score, I'll give it in terms of how far over I am---meaning, over all-par-3.

On the tougher layout I shoot in the 70s, so should really keep score as all-par-4. It's a tough transition, though. Sometimes when I get off to a bad start, when after 6 holes I've shot 24 strokes or more, I'll switch to keeping my score as "strokes over or under bogey", at least until I get my game under control.

At the end of a round, I'll convert my score to total strokes. If you ask me my score after a round, that's how I'll give it.

Of course, as I play each hole, I'm cognizant of the actual par, or the practical personal par for me. A "4" on some holes is clearly a depressing bogey; on others, I celebrate it as a victory, a birdie, even if I'm not calling it that during the round.

 

[Binky Yutz]

That sounds like a fun course where each hole should require two great shots to get up and down for par.

The whole Wildwood Park/IDGC experience is/was the best disc golf experience I've had in my 3 short years of playing.

Put the IDGC on your bucket list, in fact, the entire Augusta, GA; North Augusta, SC area is very DG friendly with lots of wicked nice courses in that region, and as an added bonus
Stoney Hill DGC is only a short ride north from there.

Happy New Year all !!