ATTN: TWIN CITIES, MN DG'ers

[Lewmaster]

Hey, a little off topic, but does anybody from MN ever play at Twin Lakes Park in Nowthen? I just went over there a couple hours ago and all the baskets were missing except hole number 3 (which happens to be right by the road). Looks like they were jacked or something. Sad because I was up there yesterday afternoon and everything was cool.

 

[deadbody]

Whats with all the Kaposia hate? It costs the city tons of money to maintain the park, that money you are paying in goes towards all of the deficits the park has run over Kaposia's 30 years on the scene. Lets give it a few years before we expect major improvements.

The city already got that benefit. They had a multi-use park that was well used. That is the goal of putting in a park. You don't put in something in the hopes people don't use it. Their citizens benefitted from it, as did the city.

I'm not hating on Kaposia, I'm hating on a city that decided to start charging park users for an amenity they previously offered for free, and then had the gall to charge a top line price for a barely par product. It's bad business.

 

[MNcyclone]

The more people that play Kaposia the more money it costs to run. If nobody plays it then they make no money and spend no money. If lots of people come it costs them money and they make it back from all the gate money. Quite honestly the less people on my favorite course the better, and I like Kaposia the way it is (well, + a few teepads). So sorry, but neither me nor Kaposia will miss your business. Nothing personal.

 

[deadbody]

The more people that play Kaposia the more money it costs to run. If nobody plays it then they make no money and spend no money. If lots of people come it costs them money and they make it back from all the gate money. Quite honestly the less people on my favorite course the better, and I like Kaposia the way it is (well, + a few teepads). So sorry, but neither me nor Kaposia will miss your business. Nothing personal.

The city still spends money. The grass needs to be cut still, the trees need to be maintained still.

They might spend somewhat less money, but not much. It's still a multi-use park, and it would still need to be maintained.

I understand what you are saying, but I think it is a shortsighted viewpoint in the sense of Kaposia is driving people away from it instead of towards the course and the sport. The example I gave of my friend who I took there last year is what I feel happens more commonly than you think. He played once with me, he said he'll go to BRP or Bryant anytime with us (i.e. he isn't averse to paying to play) but he won't go to Kaposia again because the value isn't there. So you end up with a jewel of a course that needs polishing, but the city sees declining revenue and sticks on that instead of realizing that the revenue is declining because they haven't put any money into the course and people expect better value when paying for something.
It's a good course, I enjoy playing it, but compared to other courses it doesn't offer any value at $5 a day.

 

[MNcyclone]

You are looking at it as a revenue generating device. The city is not, they just want to recoup their losses. The city doesn't care about the future of disc golf or new players. All they care about is that they spend less money and have less problems/complaints as a result of their facilities. Quite honestly, if the city had never built Kaposia at all do you think they would want to build it now? The disc golf scene was a lot different and dare I say better (if not for everyone, then definitely for the city) back when it was built. Inviting a few dozen peaceful rec players on your course is way different then inviting a horde of people that vandalize and litter.

 

[deadbody]

You are looking at it as a revenue generating device. The city is not, they just want to recoup their losses. The city doesn't care about the future of disc golf or new players. All they care about is that they spend less money and have less problems/complaints as a result of their facilities. Quite honestly, if the city had never built Kaposia at all do you think they would want to build it now? The disc golf scene was a lot different and dare I say better (if not for everyone, then definitely for the city) back when it was built. Inviting a few dozen peaceful rec players on your course is way different then inviting a horde of people that vandalize and litter.

There is no difference between recouping losses on sunk costs and generating revenue. In both cases you are trying to add to your bottom line by utilizing assets you already have in place.

If SSP had that empty space to use right now do I think they'd put in a disc golf course? I think it would be something they would consider. It is a popular multi-generational activity that is cost effective to install and maintain. Claiming that the sport was purer or better back in the day doesn't really change things, neither does trying to explain why they are charging. The person that they want to reach isn't on these forums reading the boards and taking the sport at least somewhat seriously, they are the true rec players who play occasionally, or with more dedicated friends who take them to courses. Most of those players aren't causing problems. The ones who are will not have a problem walking onto kaposia and playing without paying anyways since they are already willing to break the law and vandalize/litter.

South St. Paul wants people to play Kaposia, if they don't then SSP doesn't generate any revenue there, and they want to use the course to generate revenue. To do that at this point you need to offer a superior product as all the other pay 2 play courses in the cities do. Kaposia doesn't at this time, and it is turning people off Kaposia.

 

[JoshEpoo]

Kaposia is driving people away from it instead of towards the course and the sport. The example I gave of my friend who I took there last year is what I feel happens more commonly than you think. He played once with me, he said he'll go to BRP or Bryant anytime with us (i.e. he isn't averse to paying to play) but he won't go to Kaposia again because the value isn't there. So you end up with a jewel of a course that needs polishing, but the city sees declining revenue and sticks on that instead of realizing that the revenue is declining because they haven't put any money into the course and people expect better value when paying for something.
It's a good course, I enjoy playing it, but compared to other courses it doesn't offer any value at $5 a day.

-BRP, Bryant, and Kaposia are 20 to 30 miles away from each other, with an ugly net of city roads and highways separating them. Kaposia is the east side alternative to BRP and Bryant and it's hardly competing for the same customers. The joint pass for KP and the Valley just enforces the notion that this is primarily for SE metro area players.

The difference in value becomes shockingly clear when you look at the season pass rates. $30-40 for two quality courses (42 holes total) located a short distance apart or $140 for BRP which is located way farther out of the city and offers only 27 holes which feature less variation among the holes.

 

[deadbody]

Oakwood is fairly close to Kaposia (15 mins or so) and is free and offeres a similar variety of holes. Ditto Acorn. Both are not quite as good as Kaposia, but most people I hang with would rather play Acorn or Oakwood because at least then they don't feel they are not getting a good value.

And as someone who lives in about the center of all the pay courses (All are 15-30 minutes from me) Kaposia is clearly competing for my dollars, against other courses that are better maintained.

Like I've said from the begining. I like Kaposia, I enjoy playing there, but before I spend more money there I need to feel that the parks department is not just trying to balance a budget on the backs of existing customers without adding any value.

 

[Jbowdown]

I'm copying and pasting my opinion I posted on the MN Frisbee Association page last fall as I think it's relevant to this conversation. It was originally meant for the Three Rivers Park fan-boys (Westsiders) who want to downplay the value or importance of any course not in TRP that would dare to go ply-to-play. I believe Kaposia requires more variance in technique and also has a higher Scratch Scoring Average (SSA) than any other in the metro (this means the average score here is higher than others in the metro):

This is the way I see it. Kaposia is an amazing course and is probably the most challenging one in the Metro. One day I believe I've mastered it by shooting an incredible round only to go back another day to find it won't acknowledge me as it's rightful master; so it bites back and my score suffers for it. But I continue to go back time and time again because this course will greatly improve my game more so than any other course I can think of in the Metro. The westsiders love the Three Rivers Parks (TRP) soooo much because of the aesthetics that they forget that these three courses combined fall short to the challenge that awaits you at Kaposia.

I'm not saying that the TRP courses are easy for the Rec or Am disc golfer but to the average Pro it's just an endurance for throwing long wide open shots that you have a dozen lines in which to get to the basket. On a course like Elm Creek I only care about long distance accuracy since the line you choose doesn't matter. This is a completely different skill then the accuracy required to consistently hit a gap between obstacles. I'm not saying that you won't obtain useful skills (playing in the wind, elevation change and increasing max distance) at these courses it's just that you're skill level plateaus sooner when a course doesn't force you to shape lines you must hit to stay on the fairway.

Another observation: I had the opportunity to play a round with an up and coming advanced player from the westside (who mainly plays TRP courses and scores well out there) at Acorn. We met up when I returned a disc I found of his. He started out well but halfway through the round he was getting frustrated when he wasn't hitting any of the lines he was attempting. He ended up around +3 and I shot an lower average round around -3. We had a good discussion at the end of the round and taught him how to hyzer-flip understable discs (he was amazed that my AvengerSS was going 75' farther than his Boss!). While he was a good player (I'll play with him again in a heartbeat)at Elm Creek he hasn't fully obtained the skills or the equipment to shoot tightly wooded courses.

I've bought season passes at TRP for the last 3 years and I bought the
Kaposia/NV one this year (I'd also buy one at BRP if they offered it). I'm
going to buy them both again next year even though Bryant Lake and Elm Creek are birdie fests (or really boring pars).

P.S. Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[JoshEpoo]

Oakwood is fairly close to Kaposia (15 mins or so) and is free and offeres a similar variety of holes. Ditto Acorn. Both are not quite as good as Kaposia, but most people I hang with would rather play Acorn or Oakwood because at least then they don't feel they are not getting a good value.

And as someone who lives in about the center of all the pay courses (All are 15-30 minutes from me) Kaposia is clearly competing for my dollars, against other courses that are better maintained.

Like I've said from the begining. I like Kaposia, I enjoy playing there, but before I spend more money there I need to feel that the parks department is not just trying to balance a budget on the backs of existing customers without adding any value.

It certainly has a ways to go before it's as refined as the other courses that went in to the ground with the intent of being pay to play from day 1, but the experience of playing a round at KP or The Valley has only improved since they changed format.

The relative value of playing at KP/Valley is just a difference in perspective and location.

 

[Bubbajoe]

I'm new to this game so I only have the last two years to make my comparison, but here it is:

The lessened traffic alone is worth 5$ fee.

Beyond that I have no problems throwing SSP a bone to help care for a course that I use and love. Especially considering how much Kaposia needs it.

 

[Sadjo]

You should look into a few of the others in the area. South side Red Oak in Burnsville is a really nice 10/20 hole course. Whenever I go back up to MN I usually play:
BRP
Bryant
Kaposia
The Valley
Red Oak
Acorn
Oakwood Park

I wasn't too impressed with Basset or especially Sunnyside :/

I've played all those except Oakwood. I will play Bassett Creek because I was there when the course went in the ground and a friend of mine is the one behind that course...and it is only 5-10 minutes from my parents house and a nice, short course to walk with a 5 and 6 year-old that will be playing with me.

I play Sunnyside because that is what happened to the baskets from Northwoods and where I played a lot years ago. Northwoods and Zachary Playfield were the only two courses in the part of the twin cities and the only other choice without driving to the St. Paul side of town was Lone Lake. Lone Lake had the Saucer holes and Zachary had the famed 40' Par one hole.

Anyway...most of the rounds I play while visiting will be with kids in tow. The only non kids-in-tow round I have planned is BRP.

 

[MNcyclone]

There is no difference between recouping losses on sunk costs and generating revenue. In both cases you are trying to add to your bottom line by utilizing assets you already have in place.

If SSP had that empty space to use right now do I think they'd put in a disc golf course? I think it would be something they would consider. It is a popular multi-generational activity that is cost effective to install and maintain. Claiming that the sport was purer or better back in the day doesn't really change things, neither does trying to explain why they are charging. The person that they want to reach isn't on these forums reading the boards and taking the sport at least somewhat seriously, they are the true rec players who play occasionally, or with more dedicated friends who take them to courses. Most of those players aren't causing problems. The ones who are will not have a problem walking onto kaposia and playing without paying anyways since they are already willing to break the law and vandalize/litter.

South St. Paul wants people to play Kaposia, if they don't then SSP doesn't generate any revenue there, and they want to use the course to generate revenue. To do that at this point you need to offer a superior product as all the other pay 2 play courses in the cities do. Kaposia doesn't at this time, and it is turning people off Kaposia.

A few things on your post:

Cost/revenue potential is not merely dependent on the amount of money it costs right now and the revenue they bring in. Every person that plays the course costs the city money. If nobody played the course it wouldn't cost the city a dime because, well, it wouldn't really be a course. Emptying trash cans, picking up litter, and erosion landscaping all increases with increased traffic. The road and parking lot need more attention with more cars coming and going. Does the city want a park that its citizens can enjoy? Sure, but do they want a park that is mobbed every day with hundreds of disc golfers? Probably not.

My comments about back in the day were not aimed at the quality of people playing, but the shear number. Back in the day it would be played by dozens of people, but now it is easily in the hundreds. Erosion is the number one concern and is hugely expensive, and is only caused by the hordes of disc golfers. Its easy to say that bad apples are few and far between, but the more people you have on a course the more bad apples will be present. Add to this the fact that huge crowds of golfers push out the families that want to BBQ or play volleyball.

In the end, I really don't think that SSP gives a crap about whether you or anybody else plays their disc golf course. If they did, they would be responsive to your concerns. Their lack of response to the disc golf community's complaints point to one thing; they actually want less traffic. That is because of a simple reality, that less golfers = less cost to the city and more utility to its local residents. And if they do indeed get gaggles of golfers, at least they will make some money to offset associated costs.

 

[CFH-mn]

ssp vs Eden Pairie/ kaposia vs bryant lake
ssp had stockyards but they closed!
Eden prairie has BEST BUY CO. world HQ- Thats Way more tax money coming in,EP known as cake eaters! ssp we drive chevy, EP they drive merc benz! just drive past the high schools- the student lot is a car show!
its all about extra funding, Eden Prairie has it- SSP doesnt!
the $5 charge is to keep you away! And the grass cutt