Backhand 1357

[NoseDownKing]

Back:
Side:

Tried to get the figure 8 working. I think it helped some, but the plant leg/shift is still off. The plant leg just looks kind of like "smush" and not sturdy/engaged. Looking at how far my hips move relative to the rest of my body, it looks like I should try to keep my hips further "back". But that causes me to not get on my front leg at all -> 0 shift.

Also noticed from behind tee view, that my balance tips left in the follow through. I think it's a byproduct of my plant leg/shifting issue.

 

[Brychanus]

Wanted to give you a couple more momentum cues because I think your body still doesn't want to do them in/connect them to your backswing with the tilt.

When gym guy does skaters here notice how his plant toe is everting off the ground "for free" because he's shifting back and forth and landing with more compression force each way. His body mass shifting is pulling his "front" foot off the ground each way as his weight shifts.



Weck's getting the same thing, but he's already loaded up in the "backswing" here to start:



For you: trouble is that both of those are basically just fancy/athletic walks and you aren't quite getting them in your form. Your rear leg really should feel more like it's just "walking" back rather than your move there. In the throw, the compression against the ground comes from shifting your body mass back onto the drive leg, which leads the disc and throwing arm back. It would feel much more momentous than you're getting there for drive-level power. If you gave a full-on heave with your current rear leg action I think you'd stumble off balance.

Instead, Berkshire is "walking" his backswing "up" relative to the ground. He is very braced into the rear leg as the backswing keeps going up up up and coils him around. His backswing is cuing up more power than yours because of the action walking it back. Watch his rear leg very closely and compare it to yours. Even if your backswing looks way more horizontal or remains lower, you should achieve a similar feeling. Shirtless not required.



I don't think it's 100% necessary to learn this standing taller, but it did make it easier for me to get some of the feel relative to gravity + part of why Double Dragon works. You can also add a ton of momentum without needing Man of Steel legs to resist collapse - the ground forces start to go up quickly. Someone like Seppo or Kuoksa or McBeth can pull off that deeper bent rear knee but they're getting way more resistance heaving back than you or most people.

Edit: I start everything as a skeptic but I wanted to say that from a sports crossover perspective, many of these Weckmethod moves really are outstanding. For you in particular, I recommend playing around with just the warmup moves here for a couple weeks- watch how he's shifting (walking/weight shifting) and naturally swinging in each direction and try it with a weighted lever (carefully at first). It encodes all of the good stuff. Every detail about how he shifts his weight and moves his arms/club is deliberate and related to leveraging out objects (like discs) in general.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to stagger rear foot further back. Turn your head slightly back.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Still hardstuck on my shifting/momentum issue. I was kind of trying something with my left arm here to try and gain more momentum, but doesn't seem to help really. My shift/front leg/front foot look awful. It really feels like no matter what I do, my body just won't let me shift.

I know the fix is not shifting faster or harded, it's obviously about getting the mass into the shift. Momentum is m*v, so a small amount of velocity may be converted into a very large amount of momentum. I'm just not sure where my mass is "disappearing" during the throw or what is allowing my foot and leg to do that super weird motion. I'm just thinking, that if I was actually coming with my mass on to the plant, my leg and foot wouldn't be able to do what they are doing now. The heel doesn't retract backwards if I were to land on the ground with a force of M*g. My current landing force is nearly 0*g.

I feel like something is going to click soon for me

 

[sidewinder22]

Your rear hip(CoM) never drops down going into the plant. Swivel Stairs. Or use a cinder block and drop/step down from it.

 

[Brychanus]

Edit: I start everything as a skeptic but I wanted to say that from a sports crossover perspective, many of these Weckmethod moves really are outstanding. For you in particular, I recommend playing around with just the warmup moves here for a couple weeks- watch how he's shifting (walking/weight shifting) and naturally swinging in each direction and try it with a weighted lever (carefully at first). It encodes all of the good stuff. Every detail about how he shifts his weight and moves his arms/club is deliberate and related to leveraging out objects (like discs) in general.

Just wanted to mention after spending a couple weeks with the Weckmethod workout linked above:

My opinion remains positive of this stuff in general.

One thing to caution if you try any of these moves from Weck or Chris (the guy in the vid linked above), some moves look more like a rear heel spinout/too rotational. You want the rear heel to be helping collect into the shift, so it shouldn't spin away from the shift of your body mass (it should always be headed toward the target!).

So I think instead you want to make sure you're still everting off the rear foot in each move - for example, he is doing the preferred foot eversion when he does the lateral skaters around 14:00 - otherwise he wouldn't be able to skate so far in balance back and forth. It's easier to cheat rotation into the smaller moves. I just mind the same mechanics in each other drill accordingly.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just wanted to mention after spending a couple weeks with the Weckmethod workout linked above:

My opinion remains positive of this stuff in general.

One thing to caution if you try any of these moves from Weck or Chris (the guy in the vid linked above), some moves look more like a rear heel spinout/too rotational. You want the rear heel to be helping collect into the shift, so it shouldn't spin away from the shift of your body mass (it should always be headed toward the target!).

So I think instead you want to make sure you're still everting off the rear foot in each move - for example, he is doing the preferred foot eversion when he does the lateral skaters around 14:00 - otherwise he wouldn't be able to skate so far in balance back and forth. It's easier to cheat rotation into the smaller moves. I just mind the same mechanics in each other drill accordingly.

Yeah, when you rotate in place the foot will "spin out/invert" when it leaves the ground but it's just being pulled by the pelvis/swing as it passes by after everting.

 

[NoseDownKing]

I'm trying if the David Wiggins style standstill works better. Looking at the footage of Wiggins, I'm actually not quite sure how he strides. It seems like he strides very diagonally, as his stride is more of a step/walk than the traditional lateral move. In the above video it looks like I'm kind of mixing the two, which screws everything up.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm trying if the David Wiggins style standstill works better. Looking at the footage of Wiggins, I'm actually not quite sure how he strides. It seems like he strides very diagonally, as his stride is more of a step/walk than the traditional lateral move. In the above video it looks like I'm kind of mixing the two, which screws everything up.

A bit hard to see from this angle but I think you might be pitching your upper body/nose a bit too West and North as you stride so you collapse a bit in the front hip/leg.

Your posture shrunk in a little again overall. See if you can stay a bit taller in the stance keeping your posture as you stride. Still trying to get you to do full braced tilt directly back against the ground. You could also step diagonally off a cinderblock like SW mentioned above.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, you start leaning too NW. Note how my head is more balanced over rear foot going into the plant.

 

[NoseDownKing]

I'm now able to throw "outside" throughout the offseason, which will undoubtedly help with form and everything else.

I've been focusing on leading with my front shoulder and hip in the x-step and pushing/changing direction in the brace. Seems like my posture is pretty good, but it's just a bit off. I'm barely not getting on the front leg, so when I push off the front leg, I end up slightly too behind. How do I get slightly more forward, so that doesn't happen?

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not sure what you are saying/asking there.

1. Take a big first step with right foot. Your step is tiny.

2. Push upward/hop off right leg into x-step. You are sinking downward going into x-step.

 

[NoseDownKing]

I'm not sure what you are saying/asking there.

1. Take a big first step with right foot. Your step is tiny.

2. Push upward/hop off right leg into x-step. You are sinking downward going into x-step.

Basically asking why I'm slightly behind the front foot in the follow through, instead of balanced on it. But I think your two points might have answered it

 

[NoseDownKing]

More throwing from inside again. Now I think I have a more basic case of over the top, instead of something super weird like before. I need to figure out/know why my body comes over the top, since there must be some motion pattern causing it. I have no way of really forcing myself to not come over the top, so there's something fairly massive that's moving my body in that direction.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are trying to keep your pelvis too open going into the x-step and end up slowing down on rear leg trying to rotate too much on it.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Looks like you are trying to keep your pelvis too open going into the x-step and end up slowing down on rear leg trying to rotate too much on it.

View attachment 330992

Seems like this issue has been with my for a long time. I have to fix it for real now. How does this cause over the top?

 

[Brychanus]

Seems like this issue has been with my for a long time. I have to fix it for real now. How does this cause over the top?

Leaves you prematurely open when you plant with less leverage directly back against the ground in braced tilt and harmony with gravity. The momentum and swing tend to go over the top as a result.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Forehand:

Backhand:


Some updating again. Forehand has been improving a lot. Probably around a 90-100 foot increase compared to last season. Getting my body sideways and tucking the offarm in really seem to help.

Backhand is some what better, but front leg balance is still lacking. You may spot a couple guys behind with perfect tilted posture on front leg . So hard to get the spine perfectly inline with the front leg like that. Some how got to get my body throwing more upwards instead of flat or downwards.

Maybe unrelated, but I'm slowing down on left leg because I'm landing on it with my weight behind it (so I might want to fix that).

 

[sidewinder22]

FH: Looks like your off arm is swinging back and forward around too rotationally and tucking too late. Video blurs end of swing, looks like you aren't getting a lot of lower arm layback/external shoulder rotation/elbow lead.

BH: Rear foot/leg gets too backward and plant too closed and too backward, rear knee behind ankle too late and pushing too late over top front knee. Note how Eagle is more sideways on both feet and front hip braced behind knee clearing/opening pelvis and tilting up on it. Your front hip is stuck closed.

 

[NoseDownKing]

FH: Looks like your off arm is swinging back and forward around too rotationally and tucking too late. Video blurs end of swing, looks like you aren't getting a lot of lower arm layback/external shoulder rotation/elbow lead.

BH: Rear foot/leg gets too backward and plant too closed and too backward, rear knee behind ankle too late and pushing too late over top front knee. Note how Eagle is more sideways on both feet and front hip braced behind knee clearing/opening pelvis and tilting up on it. Your front hip is stuck closed.
View attachment 335201

The video angle in the backhand is some what off, so foot angles look worse than they actually are. Weird how I didn't notice how late my rear foot push is. That must be the reason for tipping over?