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After checking my reflection getting to grt into the right posture. And feeling out some more swings paying attention to my knees bending. It seemss that it makes a difference whether I stand mostly on the balls or heels of my feet. It seems that maybe I stay too much on my heels. But on the balls of my feet my posture looks better. It feels unnatural to do this while swinging but perhaps I just got used to it in the wrong way. Any pointers on pressure on the balls vs heels of the feet?
https://youtu.be/_aPeW3uklbM
I was looking at SW22s ground pressure video frame by frame. Feels like I have been way more on the heels than I should. The only time he really gets on the heel is when crushing the can on the downswing. Something I will be working with. First couple throws staying on the balls of my feet seemed to have allowed me to make different and probably better swing paths work. But my throws have felt weak so far. More adjustments necessary.
Curious what SW22 sees, but the first thing that stands out is the rear knee action.
You do have a bit of pogo or spring there, but there's a bit too much bounce directly back from the target:
Instead you want it to pogo you more vertically and maintain a more vertical shin angle, preventing the rear knee from leaking outside the rear ankle.
See how my shin angle stays pretty vertical here as does SW22's. The bounce in my knee is redirecting my hip more vertically than yours to maintain the shin angle. That's why when I swing the hammer into the backswing everything is connected and you can see me easily stop - that's exactly where everything is in good leveraged alignment at the peak of the action.
When my front knee landed too flexed like yours, it was partly because it was trying to protect that knee from a bad force transfer off the rear leg. It'll probably get easier to fix if you work on the backswing first.
After checking my reflection getting to grt into the right posture. And feeling out some more swings paying attention to my knees bending. It seemss that it makes a difference whether I stand mostly on the balls or heels of my feet. It seems that maybe I stay too much on my heels. But on the balls of my feet my posture looks better. It feels unnatural to do this while swinging but perhaps I just got used to it in the wrong way. Any pointers on pressure on the balls vs heels of the feet?
Yes. It helped me a ton to figure out how to get everything to bounce like a bunch of coupled springs like this:
It's a lot easier to feel how the balls of the feet and heels etc. work together if you do an athletic rock like that nice and loose perhaps a little more vertically than you actually want in the DG swing at first, then shrink the springs down tighter and tighter. Same as riding the bull, but I had really crappy or absent springs to begin with and needed to exaggerate it in the context of the rocking motion.
Part of understanding foot pressure is deeply connected to the overall posture. I think Reverse Stride will do the trick for you too - get that bounce, focus on a quick vertical leg bounce in the backswing and we can see what's up.
https://youtu.be/uAPHnTDSrRM
On the balls of my feet and I'm fairly sure it's a big improvement. I see my knees are coming too close together. This drill is turning out to be a great diagnostic tool. Thanks for directing me to it!
Looking better. The knee is coming too close due to the posture entering the backswing, which also is making the swing a bit too flat.
Without micromanaging it further, try to start with the butt slightly more back and deeper in the hinge posture in post 59 and then bring it back into reverse stride with the same rear leg pogo action.
As you say its important to stay hinged in the hips. I think I was not transferring this posture into the backswing indeed. I also compared myself to SW22 and saw more of a shift from behind when he does it. Both of these things I have attempted in the video, not yet at the same time.
Im starting to feel some improvements as I throw the disc. Although the swing path seems off especially noticeable in the follow through. Any pointers on what could improve this?
I'm currently focusing on these things as I do this drill:
- Stay hinged in hips
- On balls of feet
- Shift from behind
- Patience for downswing
- Stride more laterally, it sometimes feels too spinny or I force rotation
- Don't let off arm go around my back, keep it in front
I would stay on the hunt here. Still a little bit of leaking behind the rear ankle:
I think the next and related problem is that as you get into the backswing you begin to flatten out all the action too much. That's part of why you're leaking back a bit. It's also contributing to the bent knee when you swing and the spinout. SW22's throwing arm and front leg are counterbalancing one another naturally because of his bit of tilt.
See if you can maintain a little more tilt across your shoulders as you swing back. You'll feel more like you are coiling up as you swing back. Then swing forward toward the target.
I would keep using this drill because it is uniquely good at getting the rear side leveraged. You can see that it's also tricky when you change backswing heights later, so reinforcing it at the max range is good. Fussing with the toe angle of the rear foot can also make an outsize impact on how well leveraged you stay inside the ankle so you might check that. I find that it's getting gradually easier to find it reliably at max extension but I still need to work on it so it can take time.
I think tilt could indeed be key for me now. I've always had trouble when I worked on this such as the tilted spiral. However I think now that I discovered I need to be more on the balls of my feet it is opening many doors for improving my posture. I think this may also allow me to tilt properly now. Hoping it will improve my swing path.
Good point on the toe angle. I see my toe angle changes a lot at various moments in the swing. I guess this shows I'm not coiling well. Another thing to work on!
I think tilt could indeed be key for me now. I've always had trouble when I worked on this such as the tilted spiral. However I think now that I discovered I need to be more on the balls of my feet it is opening many doors for improving my posture. I think this may also allow me to tilt properly now. Hoping it will improve my swing path.
Good point on the toe angle. I see my toe angle changes a lot at various moments in the swing. I guess this shows I'm not coiling well. Another thing to work on!
Toe angle: just like walking, there really is an ideal angle for how your rear toe (and front toe) will point for the best leverage, and what changes is the size of the stride. Once I started finding it in reverse stride it got easier to find it in shorter or forward strides (still not great for me).
Couple thoughts that may help about the other points (just focus on backswing tilt and see what we get, and here's why):
Here's a post that helps summarize the flow of foot pressure in standstills.
If you do a sound full Figure 8 pattern in a standstill you'll get a pressure pattern like Socradeez sketched there. I feel the same pattern now when I swing (but not ideal all the time).
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but SW22 tends to advise getting full control over the ground pressure in standstills, which modifies a bit when you stride. Same idea as fully loading the bow - get mastery over the whole range of motion, and it's easier to tweak in the x-step.
If the legs are leaky you can cheat the feel of the pressure you see there in SocraDeez's diagram, but not get fully loaded either way.
So you do want to get good athletic load and pogoing with the balls of the feet, but allow your body to rock back and forth into that pattern. It does get easier the better you get at the reverse stride because the less the rear leg leaks, the easier you can develop backswing tilt and maintain it into the swing. I think you saw a few posts back in my form dev that suddenly I went from spinning out to getting a much better-looking shift and overall swing.
That was because my leg mechanics were working better, but I was swinging down at first without realizing it. As soon as SW22 reminded me how to properly swing forward over the legs, the posture immediately put the pressure much closer to the right places.
This is my bigger realization recently - some of the big movements you learn depend on each other to function correctly. If you just try to tilt with leverage in the rear leg we'll probably see if there are more mechanics or posture issues in the way.
Toe angle: just like walking, there really is an ideal angle for how your rear toe (and front toe) will point for the best leverage, and what changes is the size of the stride. Once I started finding it in reverse stride it got easier to find it in shorter or forward strides (still not great for me).
Couple thoughts that may help about the other points (just focus on backswing tilt and see what we get, and here's why):
Here's a post that helps summarize the flow of foot pressure in standstills.
If you do a sound full Figure 8 pattern in a standstill you'll get a pressure pattern like Socradeez sketched there. I feel the same pattern now when I swing (but not ideal all the time).
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but SW22 tends to advise getting full control over the ground pressure in standstills, which modifies a bit when you stride. Same idea as fully loading the bow - get mastery over the whole range of motion, and it's easier to tweak in the x-step.
If the legs are leaky you can cheat the feel of the pressure you see there in SocraDeez's diagram, but not get fully loaded either way.
So you do want to get good athletic load and pogoing with the balls of the feet, but allow your body to rock back and forth into that pattern. It does get easier the better you get at the reverse stride because the less the rear leg leaks, the easier you can develop backswing tilt and maintain it into the swing. I think you saw a few posts back in my form dev that suddenly I went from spinning out to getting a much better-looking shift and overall swing.
That was because my leg mechanics were working better, but I was swinging down at first without realizing it. As soon as SW22 reminded me how to properly swing forward over the legs, the posture immediately put the pressure much closer to the right places.
This is my bigger realization recently - some of the big movements you learn depend on each other to function correctly. If you just try to tilt with leverage in the rear leg we'll probably see if there are more mechanics or posture issues in the way.
Oh I'll definitely keep working with this reverse stride drill! I have made one of the biggest stride with my form a short amount of time. Was on the course yesterday and could already feel the benefits.
Here is some more work in progress with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9otEP4NlII
Still working on staying hinged with the hips and tilted. I think I am starting to feel what my full range of motion is in a good way. Before I used to be able to swing all the way around my back and I know that is not really due to my range of motion, but I as you phrase it well it is not a leveraged rotation.
After reading your thread and seeing your point on how Simon plants I played around with this a bit more. No video of that yet but it seemed to help even more.
I think paying attention to it with a good swing I can feel the pressure pattern you linked from SocraDeez on my rear foot. I think knowing this is already helped facilitate it as I payed attention to it. Not sure where on my lead foot it is transitioning to at the moment. However I think planting like Simon will be good in that regard.
I was wondering now that I get my backswing more leveraged how much I should load it. You suggest getting control over the full range of motion. But should it feel stretched in a way that its getting more and more difficult to backswing further. Or will there be a clear limit that I feel will be just right for that maximum range of motion
I see some improvements in the backswing. The swing is too flat. Let's try this.
I think you are using that staggered stance to try and get the diagonal version of a lateral shift and the ground torque force. However, the staggered stance is not what causes the correct ground pressure. I learned from SW22 that it's helpful to start from extreme inline to extreme staggered and get the mechanics, then you can work on more intermediate staggers and stances like you're trying there.
It's also really hard to learn what causes the good torque in the feet and the tilted spiral when the swing is flattened and the intended disc flight is flattish on release (these are two different things). Paul McBeth sometimes tells people to learn to throw flat across a tabletop. But Paul McBeth already had excellent baseball mechanics and ground pressure mastery. My flattest throws suddenly got drastically better this week and I'm much more comfortable using them now, but it's because I first learned how to get the torque force correctly on hyzer with better posture and tilted axis integrity. From there you can adjust the posture more easily. Flatter shots are possible and often useful, but we first want to make sure the swing plane itself is never straight or flat.
So do everything the same, except start with the inline stance again and bring it into the reverse stride with that bit of tilt. Then when you swing forward, focus on a more extreme hyzer:
I bet that is going to feel difficult at first.
Big general caution - don't ever really focus on trying to generate the torque force in the feet themselves - you will get it from the correct linear mechanics. Throwing on hyzer helps you find the posture and foot pressure. People royally #$%^ up their form trying to get the torque with bad mechanics and just end up spinning out.
What do you think of this video? Is this how you need to use hips?
It looks simplified for dummies like me to try to do. I can feel the pressure though it's uncomfortable and I'm afraid whether it's going to cause hip injuries or not when doing it for a long time.
Indeed it is nonsense, and I hurt my knees doing a version of this. It's also harder on the hips. I think many people start to do it because they're trying to get the foot torque force and can't figure out how to do it correctly (and as you saw I found it really ****ing hard to learn).
This was helpful for me to understand how the horizontal, vertical, and torque can be isolated and relate in the swing. Berkshire gets this massive power from the Hogan power move, buttwipe, and other good mechanics and posture. Swinging forward on hyzer from a well-braced backswing helps the feet figure it out. It'll probably help your front knee, too.
I was wondering now that I get my backswing more leveraged how much I should load it. You suggest getting control over the full range of motion. But should it feel stretched in a way that its getting more and more difficult to backswing further. Or will there be a clear limit that I feel will be just right for that maximum range of motion
It should be similar to if not exactly the same to swinging a hammer or axe back (your arm weight is most of what you are swinging back since the disc is so light). To me it always felt very strange when I was at maximum leverage at first because I wasn't used to doing it, but it should feel balanced and compact, not painful or wrenching anything.
I usually exaggerate it (even still) when I'm learning new moves to make sure I really feel that stretch from the rear foot up to the disc just like SW22's Inside Swing drill. But when things settle down it's a gentle, momentary stretch like the hammer backswing that maintains through the swing into the release.
^Backswing leverage: quality big shots feel very much like I'm a rubber band stretching now, but nothing hurts. Just a faster version of the same thing, & why working in maximum range in motion helps teach it.
I see some improvements in the backswing. The swing is too flat. Let's try this.
I think you are using that staggered stance to try and get the diagonal version of a lateral shift and the ground torque force. However, the staggered stance is not what causes the correct ground pressure. I learned from SW22 that it's helpful to start from extreme inline to extreme staggered and get the mechanics, then you can work on more intermediate staggers and stances like you're trying there.
It's also really hard to learn what causes the good torque in the feet and the tilted spiral when the swing is flattened and the intended disc flight is flattish on release (these are two different things). Paul McBeth sometimes tells people to learn to throw flat across a tabletop. But Paul McBeth already had excellent baseball mechanics and ground pressure mastery. My flattest throws suddenly got drastically better this week and I'm much more comfortable using them now, but it's because I first learned how to get the torque force correctly on hyzer with better posture and tilted axis integrity. From there you can adjust the posture more easily. Flatter shots are possible and often useful, but we first want to make sure the swing plane itself is never straight or flat.
So do everything the same, except start with the inline stance again and bring it into the reverse stride with that bit of tilt. Then when you swing forward, focus on a more extreme hyzer:
I bet that is going to feel difficult at first.
Big general caution - don't ever really focus on trying to generate the torque force in the feet themselves - you will get it from the correct linear mechanics. Throwing on hyzer helps you find the posture and foot pressure. People royally #$%^ up their form trying to get the torque with bad mechanics and just end up spinning out.
Like the guy in the vid SmileyBoy mentioned:
Indeed it is nonsense, and I hurt my knees doing a version of this. It's also harder on the hips. I think many people start to do it because they're trying to get the foot torque force and can't figure out how to do it correctly (and as you saw I found it really ****ing hard to learn).
This was helpful for me to understand how the horizontal, vertical, and torque can be isolated and relate in the swing. Berkshire gets this massive power from the Hogan power move, buttwipe, and other good mechanics and posture. Swinging forward on hyzer from a well-braced backswing helps the feet figure it out. It'll probably help your front knee, too.
It should be similar to if not exactly the same to swinging a hammer or axe back (your arm weight is most of what you are swinging back since the disc is so light). To me it always felt very strange when I was at maximum leverage at first because I wasn't used to doing it, but it should feel balanced and compact, not painful or wrenching anything.
I usually exaggerate it (even still) when I'm learning new moves to make sure I really feel that stretch from the rear foot up to the disc just like SW22's Inside Swing drill. But when things settle down it's a gentle, momentary stretch like the hammer backswing that maintains through the swing into the release.
Oof yes, the swing path flattening out has been bothering me for a long time. I should really commit to hyzers until I figure this out. Thanks for helping me through this. Regarding the staggering of my stance I have not tried to pay too much attention to this and this is about how I stand without thinking about it. Switched to a full inline stance to work on this as you suggested. What about the extreme staggered stance? In what way should I practice this?.
So one think I did notice was that my swing does not flatten out when I swing a kettle bell. Hence I thought it may be a good idea to record myself swinging a kettle bell first and then a disc. Hopefully it will show what I am doing different with the disc so I can work on this. Let me know what you think. I did two sessions and included them both. I noticed the first time I swung the kettle bell I was overdoing the pendulum and letting it swing too high. I think it should swing away from the target so the max extension should be around shoulder height and not above. I guess I might not be rocking back and forth enough. I tried to correct on this in the second video.
I think I'm on the right track here. Swing path is more hyzer, but my follow through is not great yet. The kettle bell swings seem to help. Comparing the videos and feel I think I was still rushing the downswing when holding a dis . I think I'm even going to alternate kettle bell swings 1:1 with discs now. I have to override a lot of muscle memory from swinging so flat since I started.
Another thing I noticed on elbow flexion.
As I shift towards the target, my elbow flexion is already quite far before my heel even hits the ground. I see SW22 the elbow flexion starts much later in the downswing, after his heel plants. I think this is a good thing to notice, need to let that disc fall more slowly on the pendulum of the downswing, patience!
Oof yes, the swing path flattening out has been bothering me for a long time. I should really commit to hyzers until I figure this out. Thanks for helping me through this. Regarding the staggering of my stance I have not tried to pay too much attention to this and this is about how I stand without thinking about it. Switched to a full inline stance to work on this as you suggested.
Being patient with the legs makes it easier to get out of flatland.
Are you duck footed, pigeon-toed, or in between?
There's how your femurs hang in the hips, and there's the stance independent from the foot angles. Right now you are in between an inline and full staggered stance. You can throw in between the two course, but it's usually much tricker to get the ideal leverage and rocking action at first. You want to reinforce the best neutral foot angles relative to whatever stance you're in, but trying to find both at once is harder. I am still working on it.
^get comfortable letting the front toes come up as you rock back specifically in the extreme stagger. I still would do it on hyzer to begin. It is getting easier for me to rock and get leverage in the big stagger after doing Reverse Stride first when I practice. This is like the "Patent pending" stance you hear people mention sometimes and it has already been improving my scramble shots to the point where I don't worry about them unless I'm totally lost in the trees.
So one think I did notice was that my swing does not flatten out when I swing a kettle bell. Hence I thought it may be a good idea to record myself swinging a kettle bell first and then a disc. Hopefully it will show what I am doing different with the disc so I can work on this. Let me know what you think. I did two sessions and included them both. I noticed the first time I swung the kettle bell I was overdoing the pendulum and letting it swing too high. I think it should swing away from the target so the max extension should be around shoulder height and not above. I guess I might not be rocking back and forth enough. I tried to correct on this in the second video.
1. You do appear less flat there, would recommend a couple tweaks to help your progress. When you kettlebell swing, for DG I would practice only swinging it back as high as you would a disc. (I'm still doing lots of kettlebells for exercise, but make the swings as DG-like as possible when drilling). That helps prevent rear hip leaks and helps teach your body the backswing tension, heave, and elasticity. I wouldn't swing more than the weight you have there for DG purposes, too heavy can backfire sometimes.
2. Most important - Still need to teach your feet & hips how to get and maintain ideal leverage. When you throw the disc, the rear hip still wants to clear and swivel out too much rather than maintain leverage. Most people appear to struggle with this.
In both your kettlebell and disc throws, when you Reverse Stride, start from that slight stagger you have there. If the top of the teepad or target are North, take the reverse stride from west to east. It'll probably feel weird at first. Still throw on hyzer.
Keep doing a bit of this here and there before you settle into your wider and lower stance swinging more horizontal, need to get both your legs used to getting springy against gravity to transfer your weight and force:
Slightly duck footed as far as I am aware. That feels the most neutral to me and is the stance I end up if I look down to my feet after jumping around a bit.
There's how your femurs hang in the hips, and there's the stance independent from the foot angles. Right now you are in between an inline and full staggered stance. You can throw in between the two course, but it's usually much tricker to get the ideal leverage and rocking action at first. You want to reinforce the best neutral foot angles relative to whatever stance you're in, but trying to find both at once is harder. I am still working on it.
^get comfortable letting the front toes come up as you rock back specifically in the extreme stagger. I still would do it on hyzer to begin. It is getting easier for me to rock and get leverage in the big stagger after doing Reverse Stride first when I practice. This is like the "Patent pending" stance you hear people mention sometimes and it has already been improving my scramble shots to the point where I don't worry about them unless I'm totally lost in the trees.
Interesting! I'll revisit this hoping that the things I learned recently may improve the feel with the toes lifting. Will throw some battering rams in there as well.
1. You do appear less flat there, would recommend a couple tweaks to help your progress. When you kettlebell swing, for DG I would practice only swinging it back as high as you would a disc. (I'm still doing lots of kettlebells for exercise, but make the swings as DG-like as possible when drilling). That helps prevent rear hip leaks and helps teach your body the backswing tension, heave, and elasticity. I wouldn't swing more than the weight you have there for DG purposes, too heavy can backfire sometimes.
Yep as you saw in my first attempt the kettle bell was swinging way too high, it still is a bit in the second, but I guess it's another help in finding my flaws.
2. Most important - Still need to teach your feet & hips how to get and maintain ideal leverage. When you throw the disc, the rear hip still wants to clear and swivel out too much rather than maintain leverage. Most people appear to struggle with this.
I think I know what you mean with spinning out here. I worked on this but perhaps a bit in the wrong way as my follow through got jammed up as the price for preventing myself from spinning out. I think my hips are unhinging at some point in the downswing which relates to spinning out? I wonder since I am trying to maintain that feeling of my hips being hinged from starting position to peak backswing. I just try to relax after and unload the power correctly into the disc, but I am not sure what happens to my hips on the downswing. Perhaps I am not sequencing stuff on the downswing correctly.
In both your kettlebell and disc throws, when you Reverse Stride, start from that slight stagger you have there. If the top of the teepad or target are North, take the reverse stride from west to east. It'll probably feel weird at first. Still throw on hyzer.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, but I think it is this. If the target is at 12 o'clock. I start with a slightly staggerd stance and a line drawn through my rear and front foot would go to 11 o'clock. I take the reverse stride towards my rear foot, and then on the downswing my front foot goes where? From west to east would be from 9 to 3 oclock are you suggesting I open my stance on the downswing?
Keep doing a bit of this here and there before you settle into your wider and lower stance swinging more horizontal, need to get both your legs used to getting springy against gravity to transfer your weight and force:
I think I know what you mean with spinning out here. I worked on this but perhaps a bit in the wrong way as my follow through got jammed up as the price for preventing myself from spinning out. I think my hips are unhinging at some point in the downswing which relates to spinning out? I wonder since I am trying to maintain that feeling of my hips being hinged from starting position to peak backswing. I just try to relax after and unload the power correctly into the disc, but I am not sure what happens to my hips on the downswing. Perhaps I am not sequencing stuff on the downswing correctly.
Spinning out is a consequence of the weight shift gone awry. Don't focus on not spinning out. That usually doesn't help. Just work on these mechanics and once you get them they will cause you to not spin out.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, but I think it is this. If the target is at 12 o'clock. I start with a slightly staggerd stance and a line drawn through my rear and front foot would go to 11 o'clock. I take the reverse stride towards my rear foot, and then on the downswing my front foot goes where? From west to east would be from 9 to 3 oclock are you suggesting I open my stance on the downswing?
The foot will move toward the 3-o'clock in transition to land in line with the rear foot (aligned toward 12 o'clock) and crush the can on that line. This is the same as saying that you will see your front foot move toward your rear foot and away from the camera to land inline. Don't open the stance, you are just changing where your plant foot is landing to crush the can when striding the front foot back closer to the rear foot. Still buttwipe/hershyzer leading the swing. If you can't get it no worries, I would say it's better to start totally inline and go into the reverse stride still inline and we can work from there.
Gentle reminder to say "swing" or "forward swing" instead of downswing - SW22 called me out on that and it can evoke the wrong swing thoughts, surely enough.
Alright I see what you mean now! Will check how it feels, but primarily focus on in line. Thanks again for all this recent feedback. I think it'll be good for me to make some of the posture changes muscle memory. Let the good stuff from recent drills become automatic. So I'll have more room to experiment further changing my form!
