Hey again. Thanks for clarifying a bunch of stuff, Garublador--you have the patience of a saint.
No problem. It's easy to have paitence when it's an information exchange with a captive audience rather than a debate. You'd be surprised at how many people want advice and then argue with you when you give it.
The post that didn't get replied to was
this one. The last paragraph is the most important, just some minor confusion about plastics.
The Champ Leopard shouldn't show visual signs of wear that quick. If there are chunks missing or displaced that's out of the ordinary. If there are marks that don't affect the flight or feel, that's no big deal. I judge damage by how it affects flight. How a disc looks doesn't matter.
I'm having some trouble visualizing OAT. Do you know of any diagrams that show this?(I saw the grip tutorial, I'm more interested in the physics of it)
Assuming a RHBH throw, you can think of OAT that causes a disc to be more understable as a force pushing the left side of the disc upward and OAT that causes the disc to be more overstable as a force pushing the left side of the disc downward. If you're asking why some discs mask it better than others you might have the wrong guy. I'm an electronics guy, not an aerospace guy. I just know that faster and more overstable discs tend to mask it better.
I read the OAT thread and the way you describe it, it sounds like a sort of "wobbling" happens in the air--if the axis of rotation is not perpendicular to the flight plate, the disc wobbles. Am I right so far?
Mostly. The wobble isn't necessary. As you noticed below, it tends to show up in slower discs more than faster discs.
I've only ever had a disc noticeably wobble a few times, and it was when I did a hyzer flip with my putter (which I find strange, because it's supposed to be pretty overstable for a putter...Challenger FLX-2/3/0/2). I'm not sure how this wobbliness translates into flight patterns exactly though.
I'm pretty certain it's OAT that is causing the disc to act more understable. The most common causes are a grip problem, wrist roll over or finising on a plane lower than the angle of the disc (i.e. throwing hyzer and finishing flat). The Challenger, while overstable for a putter, is still a putter and is very responsive to OAT.
Gotcha. So holding off on getting more specialty drivers will help me improve my form with slower discs that are more telling about mistakes. So when should I invest in these?
The best advice I've heard is to only use specailty discs when you're choosing to do it rather than if you're using that disc because you have to. In other words, when you're happy with your skills and aren't planning on improving any more. When that point comes is more a function of your personal goals than anything else. Many people never get to where they want or need specailty discs. There are recent cases of top level pros doing well at tournaments with a small handfull of discs. IIRC, there have been guys that have won Worlds with 3 discs.
When I can toss a fairway driver 400'? That sounds pretty intense. Is that 400' on flat ground with no wind?
Yep, 400'+ on flat ground (that Dan Beato guy from the training video I link to a lot throws Champion Teebirds 460', which is nuts). A vast majority of people (>90% of disc golfers) will never throw that far. I've hit 350' with a putter once and >400' with a Teebird once or twice, but not consistantly. It's more like 350' with fairway drivers for most pepole who really work at improving. It's a good goal to start off with, but most people eventually give it up to learn more important things that will have a larger impact on their score.
Also, in your parentheses there, you separated distance driver and fast/overstable driver. Can't they generably be the same disc? Or do you support the idea of having an overstable+stable+understable set for drivers once you can control them? And is the reason you said a fast, overstable disc because overstables are better at dealing with headwinds?
What I was referring to was what's called the "Moderately overstable driver" in this article:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/discoverlap.shtml
The idea of that role is that it's stable enough to throw into a moderate headwind and be fast enough to penetrate well to get maximum distance. They're also good for long hyzers and big flex shots. The reason a fast disc is recommended is for penetration into the wind. There are slower discs that hold their line well into the wind, but you won't get the same distance out of them like you would from something faster. They most certainly can double as a distance driver for a very high power player or someone who likes to throw distance anhyzers. I can elaborate more on these types of discs if you want.
Yeah, from what I've read a lot of people like to do this. Sounds similar to the Roc deal. So, is there any reason you'd recommend the Gazelle specifically, or would any reasonably overstable disc do?
I recommended the DX Gazelle, and D Cyclone because they are two of the easiest to control, workable drivers out there. They fight to fade back if turned over but controlling the turn isn't difficult. They can also be forced into a turn without just crashing. There are plenty of other discs out there that would work, these just happen to be the two easiest with which to learn that can also be used by higher power players. The Eagle-X is probably the other other disc out there that's potentially more versatile, but it's just that much faster and harder to control until you improve your technique. As you improve there are a ton of other discs in other plastics that will also work for this spot, but they aren't optimal for learning.
Would you say you generally advocate going with two molds rather than 3 for a given distance bracket?
I advocate exactly what's in that overlap article. IMO, there's no need for more than one putter or mid mold once you have the option of using beat discs, but for newer players that can be difficult to deal with, especally when you're wanting straight shots but only carrying discs that start off overstable for you.
Would you advise against getting something really overstable to start with like a Whippet or a Viper? See, I have this inclination to go with extremes to cover my bases (I guess that's a common newbie thing)...I feel like I should get one really overstable, one stable, and one really understable, because I want to avoid overlapping like I mentioned.
Actually, no. I think carrying one of those discs is an excellent idea. Just don't expect it to do anything but hyzer. I think you'll find that hyzers tend to be the most consisant shots so if you have that option you should take it. Plus you can get away with shorter forehand shots with crappy technique and get some cool skip shots out of them, too.
What would you say mids are good for and which ones should I look at? You've been very thorough about fairway drivers but I'd like to know about these too. Should I just go with the Roc like everyone else and see how it flies for me? Like I mentioned before I'm also really interested in the Stingray (like I said, attracted to extremes). The Comet looks cool too, so those are the three I'm looking at right now.
If I were doing it all over again I'd pick up a new Roc and a Comet. If you keep at it you'll be able to cover everything with several Rocs in various stages of wear, but that can take a while to get to. The Comet should be plenty understable but still hold a straight line for you. It will be easier to use off the bat than the Roc.
As for putters, I'm still not sure how I feel about my Challenger. I'm looking at the XD, the Rhyno, and the Rattler for possible purchases to compare to.
I'd choose the Challenger over any of those other disc in a heartbeat. The XD isn't too bad, but the Rhyno is too overstable and has horrible carry and the Rattler is too understable, has too much carry and is aweful in the wind (but is good for playing catch, which is a good idea if you haven't done that much). What aren't you sure about with the Challenger?
