Breaking a bad habit: Letting go of the disc while driving

[ChrisinFL]

A recent view from Overthrow called Still Can't throw 200ft really hit home. While my internet Distance is well over 7,000 feet, my practice and course distance is under 250', more like 225' to be honest. Josh said in his video what he sees in form videos a lot and I realized, not for the first time, that "Yeah, I'm letting go of the disc" and not really getting or feeling snap because of it. Now my issue is I have been playing this way for too long, and now I am trying to break the habit. Any tips or suggestions to help me break this nasty, distance eating habit? In practicing this weekend I find I can manage to not open my may maybe 50% of the time, but if I think, "Don't let go this time," I let go.

Good video on the topic. Insightful.

 

[Sewer bill]

Can anyone post a video of what letting go of the disc to throw it looks like?

I'm super curious how this works.

 

[timothy42b]

That would be every single video on the Form and Analysis forum.

I have more thoughts but I'm going to go play. 40 mph gusts, I'll claim I would have made every putt, if only...........

 

[RowingBoats]

That would be every single video on the Form and Analysis forum.

I have more thoughts but I'm going to go play. 40 mph gusts, I'll claim I would have made every putt, if only..........

Haha not sure I understand!

There are lots of people with decent form on the analysis forum that are definitely not actively releasing the disc.

 

[Brychanus]

When I look at players on the technique thread and elsewhere, I guess I suspect a continuum from deliberately letting it go all the way through the "magic" mechanics we're talking about. The reason I keep trying to nudge someone like neil toward thinking about posture and shift mechanics is because the rest of what the chain is doing influences where the forces flow as the arm "unfurls" in the whip. If you imagine a purely rotating player spinning horizontally (many players), then their grip is going to be pulling/pivoting the nose around with very little interaction with any resistive force coming back up from the ground through the legs (which was in turn related to their move's relationships to gravity).

My guess is the majority of problems are kind of in between because people aren't getting the full "flow" of forces jiving across the chain. A lot of the way the grip connects for them or not is whether or not their weight shift is working correctly. I think that's why my overhands suddenly spiked in quality after I ignored them and did other large athletic motions. My weight shift, posture, and chain had all synced up much better. If I had used the same "new" grip and arm pattern with my previous weight shift, I would have torqued my elbow or shoulder because the "unfurling" pattern would have been met with jerk stress, and I would have thrown shorter. Instead, because everything had been trained as a shifting athletic unit in leverage, it worked out much better overall.

Anyway, for backhand I have a "simple diagram" in mind that suddenly occurred to me when I was throwing this morning so I'll see if I can do it in as few arrows and words as possible lmao.

 

[RowingBoats]

When I look at players on the technique thread and elsewhere, I guess I suspect a continuum from deliberately letting it go all the way through the "magic" mechanics we're talking about. The reason I keep trying to nudge someone like neil toward thinking about posture and shift mechanics is because the rest of what the chain is doing influences where the forces flow as the arm "unfurls" in the whip. If you imagine a purely rotating player spinning horizontally (many players), then their grip is going to be pulling/pivoting the nose around with very little interaction with any resistive force coming back up from the ground through the legs (which was in turn related to their move's relationships to gravity).

My guess is the majority of problems are kind of in between because people aren't getting the full "flow" of forces jiving across the chain. A lot of the way the grip connects for them or not is whether or not their weight shift is working correctly. I think that's why my overhands suddenly spiked in quality after I ignored them and did other large athletic motions. My weight shift, posture, and chain had all synced up much better. If I had used the same "new" grip and arm pattern with my previous weight shift, I would have torqued my elbow or shoulder because the "unfurling" pattern would have been met with jerk stress, and I would have thrown shorter. Instead, because everything had been trained as a shifting athletic unit in leverage, it worked out much better overall.

Anyway, for backhand I have a "simple diagram" in mind that suddenly occurred to me when I was throwing this morning so I'll see if I can do it in as few arrows and words as possible lmao.

Yep, there is a huge spectrum for sure. There are even unwanted ways to have the disc rip out of your hand because you are going too hard, too early.

I don't even think 'rip' is a great word for what you really do want to accomplish. The feeling is very smooth when you do it right. Almost problematically smooth because it feels too easy for how far the disc goes.

 

[Brychanus]

Yep, there is a huge spectrum for sure. There are even unwanted ways to have the disc rip out of your hand because you are going too hard, too early.

I don't even think 'rip' is a great word for what you really do want to accomplish. The feeling is very smooth when you do it right. Almost problematically smooth because it feels too easy for how far the disc goes.

Right - I've also had the "too hard too early" phenomenon and one of the hardest things is waiting for the move to unfold.

Like so many of these words I'm careful with "rip." I still probably like most the "leverage out"-ish phrasing you use. Related to smoothness: I know some people hear a palm smack and focus on that too or even sometimes call it "snap" - Paul Ulibarri once commented that he was trying to get rid of his palm smack. I've always wondered if Gibson's smack is related to a little jerk in his chain due to his knee snap and very abrupt looking brace process when he lands (speculating obviously). I used to get a more significant palm "smack" and I think I now understand it as a kind of compensation for getting the longest possible whip and sometimes subtle things "up the chain" that the grip is trying to correct for at the last moment - the best shots for me are deceptively smooth and also "too easy". I was having a lot of trouble with my distance drivers after some recent full-body balance tweaks then this recent chatter had me make seemingly minor adjustments to my grip and the distance came back again this morning.

Weird stuff.

 

[RowingBoats]

Right - I've also had the "too hard too early" phenomenon and one of the hardest things is waiting for the move to unfold.

Like so many of these words I'm careful with "rip." I still probably like most the "leverage out"-ish phrasing you use. Related to smoothness: I know some people hear a palm smack and focus on that too or even sometimes call it "snap" - Paul Ulibarri once commented that he was trying to get rid of his palm smack. I've always wondered if Gibson's smack is related to a little jerk in his chain due to his knee snap and very abrupt looking brace process when he lands (speculating obviously). I used to get a more significant palm "smack" and I think I now understand it as a kind of compensation for getting the longest possible whip and sometimes subtle things "up the chain" that the grip is trying to correct for at the last moment - the best shots for me are deceptively smooth and also "too easy". I was having a lot of trouble with my distance drivers after some recent full-body balance tweaks then this recent chatter had me make seemingly minor adjustments to my grip and the distance came back again this morning.

Weird stuff.

Ya, I could be wrong about how the term is used but I think the early rip is still much better than trying to release the disc actively. Isn't that what some people call a 'half hit'?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh nice, now I can bring in something from the @disc-golf-neil pro thread that's been on my mind. Bolded part for emphasis. We'd have to try it, but my guess is if we tried Bonehead's test, Jake's disc would remain firmly in his hand. Mason's might fall out of his hand (at least at the start of the move). Not sure if Tamm is in between based on the discription.


As usual all partial speculation here, just curious.*

I always thought there was a little more emphasis on putting "stank" on the disc in Jake's move or an emphasis on "explosiveness" compared to someone like Barela, Tamm, or Mason. Gossage also reminds me of a more "explosive" player and I wonder if his grip is a lot firmer too. I find it easier to "see" in real time since slow motion can kind of mask some of the burst. You can watch Jake throwing with Barela here:



Gossage's move reminds me of Jake's:



Mason's move is still definitely getting some acceleration/strong resistance fully balanced in the plant but the acceleration curve tends to look a bit less abrupt to me:


Tamm is the canonical meat tower of a man and often looks on the smooth-ish end of the spectrum.


*My grip would "pass" Bonehead's test and the grip becomes firmest late in the move. I've experimented with both the "smooth acceleration" model and the "full speed out of backswing+additional acceleration in the plant" model. I guess I'd conclude personally that smooth acceleration has a good speed/effort ratio and I tend to get less hurt. I, like some others, find that the other idea can possibly get more peak speed, but its athletic requirements & maybe wear and tear potential might be higher.

It's also interesting how much Jake coils right away in his runup. Never really seen that before until him.

 

[Nick Carroll]

It's also interesting how much Jake coils right away in his runup. Never really seen that before until him.

Joel Freeman does this, too. They largely eliminate timing issues by getting back early and just keeping the shoulder fully coiled until fully braced. They don't really get the rubber band effect but they can still crush a disc. Or any they do get is minimal compared to some others.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh nice, now I can bring in something from the @disc-golf-neil pro thread that's been on my mind. Bolded part for emphasis. We'd have to try it, but my guess is if we tried Bonehead's test, Jake's disc would remain firmly in his hand. Mason's might fall out of his hand (at least at the start of the move). Not sure if Tamm is in between based on the discription.


As usual all partial speculation here, just curious.*

I always thought there was a little more emphasis on putting "stank" on the disc in Jake's move or an emphasis on "explosiveness" compared to someone like Barela, Tamm, or Mason. Gossage also reminds me of a more "explosive" player and I wonder if his grip is a lot firmer too. I find it easier to "see" in real time since slow motion can kind of mask some of the burst. You can watch Jake throwing with Barela here:



Gossage's move reminds me of Jake's:



Mason's move is still definitely getting some acceleration/strong resistance fully balanced in the plant but the acceleration curve tends to look a bit less abrupt to me:


Tamm is the canonical meat tower of a man and often looks on the smooth-ish end of the spectrum.


*My grip would "pass" Bonehead's test and the grip becomes firmest late in the move. I've experimented with both the "smooth acceleration" model and the "full speed out of backswing+additional acceleration in the plant" model. I guess I'd conclude personally that smooth acceleration has a good speed/effort ratio and I tend to get less hurt. I, like some others, find that the other idea can possibly get more peak speed, but its athletic requirements & maybe wear and tear potential might be higher.

I think you'd need to compare people at similar power levels to more clearly see a difference in how explosive their form is. E.g., Both of their 70% effort compared.

Does every player look more explosive as they get closer to their max distance?

Maybe some players downtempo more by reducing explosiveness with others downtempo with more explosiveness preserved but something else changing, idk how that could work but maybe like explosive over a shorter timeframe to reduce how much acceleration is possible.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Joel Freeman does this, too. They largely eliminate timing issues by getting back early and just keeping the shoulder fully coiled until fully braced. They don't really get the rubber band effect but they can still crush a disc. Or any they do get is minimal compared to some others.

Yeah that's what I thought about timing, it seems to greatly simplify it. E.g., I keep fighting the urge to prematurely extend my throwing elbow while coiling and have to keep practicing ways to keep it bent like bringing the disc to the chest while I coil. Whereas if I were already coiled I could just choose the final moment of elbow extension without that extra risk of it becoming a coupled muscle memory to the coiling.

I'd disagree about the rubber band comment in theory. The most important factor there is the last bit of the stretch happening dynamically to keep the loaded system dynamic, I think.

E.g., if you stretch a rubberband and then hold it at that stretch statically by pausing, but then prime it with a little more stretch before releasing it, you get more snap. Compared to stretching it without pausing but the last bit still has some acceleration to the stretch before it's released, and you get a similar effect I think.

So the analogy is Jake stretching / coiling most of the way early, but then just before the explosiveness is going to happen there's the last bit of coiling / loading to the system to ensure the explosiveness is there. I'd argue you actually can't NOT do this final bit, because there's delay from the muscle reflex reacting to the opposing forces.

Compared to someone else that stretches out the coiling range of motion over a longer period, but they still have that moment of extra loading happening at the moment of explosiveness due to the increased forces.

 

[RowingBoats]

I don't think being able to hit a disc out of someone's hand while they are just standing there is indicative of anything really. I am 100% positive that my grip pressure is very dynamic throughout the swing.

To keep some of the recent discussion related to the original question in this thread...

I personally recommend that people having trouble with the idea of not 'releasing' the disc to go way, way to the opposite end of the 'rubber band' spectrum. Slow the backswing into the power pocket way, way, way the eff down. I won't say its a bad thing to return to seeing if earlier acceleration helps you down the road, but that is one of the number one things that people who struggle with this are probably doing wrong.

 

[Brychanus]

Alright, let me try a little visual game to see if I can express the weirdest thing about grip & the whole move I think my body "discovered" with hammertime. Sorry, I tried to say fewer words but I wanted to make the figures clear.

The Hip-Grip (or Gravity Ground Force) Hypothesis
I realized while I was trying to do this that there was no single way to express it because there are so many things going on. I added a bunch of theoretical force vectors, then decided it was easier to take a physicist's attitude and "imagine a cow is a sphere" to focus on two things: (1) the path of the thumb from reachback to release point and (2) the force and tilt of the move coming from the ground up through the plant leg and hips.

I picked out GG and Klein because what I see in their move out of the pocket is "the same" at a coarse level despite differences in their bodies and postures. I actually did not fully expect to find this quite so clearly until I went frame by frame, and because Klein's move has a lower backswing and is overall more horizontal (and a bit more rotational than GG through the hips I think), I missed part of it until I watched what happened as his hand and disc redirecting out of his pocket.

Basically, the important part for each player is in the three panels to the left: (1) from the pocket into the release, there is a downward force coming into the disc mediated through the thumb that is (2) contrary to the net horizontal-by-vertical force transmitted through their forward motion and action through the plant leg (red) and hips (in balanced tilt). The green line is a sketch for where part of the force is headed throughout the move through the lower body/hips/pelvis. The white line is a sketch tracing the approximate path of the thumb throughout the move. The yellow arrows are "swinging upwards nose down." The orange horizontal line is just there so you can see the relative changes along the Y-dimension.

If you look at the leftmost slide for each player, you see the "same" effect in both of their moves. Klein and GG are getting a strong ground force reaction (red arrow) transmitted through their posture and hips that is partly directed "up" (green arrow) relative to the "down" (white arrow) force of the forearm and thumb pressure moving toward the earth. This is what @sidewinder22 meant by "push the quarter on the table." Because there is force coming up from the ground (functioning like a "table" to resist against) and the arm moves in the opposite direction, there ends up being a net pressure at the thumb that kind of functions like a quarter push for part of the move. This is exactly what I "feel" if I swing or throw a hammer or throw a disc in good enough tilted axis as my leg resists the ground. The "key" is that you want the net force directing the disc on your intended trajectory at the end, which is why part of grip is a "whole body" phenomenon. If you jam up the action of the arm against the lower body and balance anywhere rather than "pushing the quarter" or "tossing the hammer" or "basketball push passing", bad stuff happens.




Here's another and simpler way to summarize it. Blue lines represent the tilted axis from peak backswing to release point. The green arrow is the net action and force trajectory of the lower body along that tilted axis. The white line is the motion/pressure arc through the thumb (ish) out of the pocket. I'm not 100% sure I'm right but this visualizes what I've been struggling to put into words. It doesn't make sense without understanding the tilted balance axis, interestingly. And obviously there is more to talk about with grip and its dynamics; I think this is just one part of the "big picture" of hammertime. I tried my version of both GG's (easier for me) and Klein's move and could find the "same" effect, but only if my overall posture was more similar to one or the other overall. Would need way more rigorous testing to convince a scientist but I feel slightly less crazy at the moment. Also, this is probably one of the reasons @sidewinder22 sometimes says "backswing doesn't matter much." THe backswing modifies the posture and transition move somewhat, but you can harness the forces out of various initial moves if you're moving well enough.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah that's what I thought about timing, it seems to greatly simplify it. E.g., I keep fighting the urge to prematurely extend my throwing elbow while coiling and have to keep practicing ways to keep it bent like bringing the disc to the chest while I coil. Whereas if I were already coiled I could just choose the final moment of elbow extension without that extra risk of it becoming a coupled muscle memory to the coiling.

I'd disagree about the rubber band comment in theory. The most important factor there is the last bit of the stretch happening dynamically to keep the loaded system dynamic, I think.

E.g., if you stretch a rubberband and then hold it at that stretch statically by pausing, but then prime it with a little more stretch before releasing it, you get more snap. Compared to stretching it without pausing but the last bit still has some acceleration to the stretch before it's released, and you get a similar effect I think.

So the analogy is Jake stretching / coiling most of the way early, but then just before the explosiveness is going to happen there's the last bit of coiling / loading to the system to ensure the explosiveness is there. I'd argue you actually can't NOT do this final bit, because there's delay from the muscle reflex reacting to the opposing forces.

Compared to someone else that stretches out the coiling range of motion over a longer period, but they still have that moment of extra loading happening at the moment of explosiveness due to the increased forces.

This was nicely put.

I think one way to understand what to think appears as "explosiveness" can be as you described - changes in sequence and posture can make some part of these phases appear exaggerated or more abrupt even if the underlying process is similar.

 

[timothy42b]

Right - I've also had the "too hard too early" phenomenon and one of the hardest things is waiting for the move to unfold.

Like so many of these words I'm careful with "rip." I still probably like most the "leverage out"-ish phrasing you use. Related to smoothness: I
Weird stuff.

Very interesting thread. Rip out, hit, release, SpinDoctor's Gentleman throw, Uli backloading, Beto Drill, hammer pound............. all analogies to describe something elusive. Some are active and some passive. Don't release, let the disc rip out. Don't release, make sure the disc rips out. Two different approaches.

Thanks for the links, they need some careful viewing.

I think Josh's drill is the most clear and complete description of this out there, certainly that I've seen.
I think it's probably "wrong." ( in that this probably isn't quite what happens, or at least all that happens)
I think it will probably work. At least for some people.

 

[Brychanus]

Very interesting thread. Rip out, hit, release, SpinDoctor's Gentleman throw, Uli backloading, Beto Drill, hammer pound............. all analogies to describe something elusive. Some are active and some passive. Don't release, let the disc rip out. Don't release, make sure the disc rips out. Two different approaches.

Thanks for the links, they need some careful viewing.

I think Josh's drill is the most clear and complete description of this out there, certainly that I've seen.
I think it's probably "wrong." ( in that this probably isn't quite what happens, or at least all that happens)
I think it will probably work. At least for some people.

Timothy if you haven't tried it yourself yet: something I haven't seen done (or at least emphasized often) is taking a version of what I was saying with Rowing above about the "weighted nose" idea (tape a small weight to one edge of the disc, which will be the nose that pivots around), and try little moves like Josh's or the one leg drills at a 200 ft. target. A weighted disc might not make it there, but if you can get it to fly further and teach your arm how to get the weight to pivot all the way around into the release point it may help. It is important to connect the feeling of the action with the end intent for many people. Not sure in your case, but maybe worth a try.

In the 200' video at the top of the thread, Josh was talking about accidentally crushing the 200 ft at very low tempo which is the "same" effect I discovered with the hammer throw for accidental +100' with a Comet. Once you discover the "trick" it actually becomes harder not to throw too far at short distances unless you control your tempo or the size of your move.

For people who are willing to work with arm pumps: Paul's wrist is doing the "same" thing here.



A little more generally speaking here, and part of why grip depends on "upstream" kinetics:
I use a version of Philo's pump now, slightly modified for my overall move. One reason I benefit from it is that it helps me is I always start my preshot routine by making sure I am hefting and leveraging and whipping the disc and feeling it want to pivot so that the nose will always come all the way around. I also slow down to feel the weight of my arm and make sure I'm using it to lead the disc completely into the release. I think the pump going back as I step or shift forward also helps with the "athletic" arm tension many people struggle with when their arms end up too inert. When Paul or other pump players heave it or leave it behind them, it functions a bit like Reddicks' crow hop: as the rear leg hits the ground, the throwing arm gets slightly "pulled taut" as the body mass shifts forward along with his core loading up. It does not need to be a big effect to work and works more efficiently when it is very small.*

I think a lot of athletic people do this naturally without thinking about it. The rest of us need help.

In understanding my own (or anyone's) development in hindsight, there is a bit of a "cart and horse" issue because I was/still am messing with hammers, pumps, momentum drills, and the works all at the same time.

*Notice that this gif says "rear leg drive" but "drive" is another hot-button word. In any case, Reddick's posture is such that he just needs to support his body mass shifting forward ahead of the rear leg, just like walking, running, or the X-step. He is "drifting and dropping" off the rear leg (again, the same way walking and running work, just big and athletic). Pink = approximate center of mass, yellow vertical is approximate leverage point rear foot bracing in transition.