Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Brychanus]

I see what you mean, yeah. It almost doesn't even really make sense to me right now, how to push my hips forward enough without turning my hips like I do there. I mean maybe freak athletes aren't always the best example, but positions like this:

remain pretty elusive to me. When you say center, where is that exactly? I'm guessing somewhere around the hips or the core, but I'm curious.

For most people the "center"/"Center of gravity"/CoG is near the belly button.

I think it's tricky to understand static positions without understanding the mechanics and dynamics. And all of these players are very well developed so they can adjust their postures to be more extreme to use the same mechanics we talk about here to greater effect (due to lots and lots of practice with good mechanics)

Simon's always been interesting to me because his lower body is a bit hard to understand in static images - I think his hips are more naturally externally rotated due to his anatomy, and he has found a way to hinge in on a pretty tilted approach. He stays higher on his rear foot w/ the heel off the ground than most players. I think it takes a particular anatomy and/or very strong legs to get proper leverage like that.

In that particular drive, his weight is hanging a bit toward the camera, and as he strides into the plant he'll swing in and out like seabas22 Crush the Can like Lizotte.



This will put his plant stride moving toward the northwest part of the tee, and he will release on a hyzer power shot angle. But his feet are still in a neutral stance relative to each other.

I think that's also the trick for understanding Calvin's footwork:

Does Calvin turn back too far?

It seems like he gets his hips turned back pretty far pretty early, but he also clearly has a ton of momentum down the teepad. It's interesting, he and Seppo have pretty similar forms in a lot of ways.

I've started looking at Calvin a lot since his body is so different from mine. I'm still wondering why he doesn't get a bit more juice on the disc (he's throwing like 73-74 mph which is obviously world class, but could he get to 80 with that body?). He's got a very sharp "knife edge" plant and almost looks like he's risking rolling his ankle on his line low power shots. But working backwards from that, look at the angle of his plant foot relative to the drive foot - he's still got a very neutral relationship between the two feet, which is why he's still levering well enough to get a clean weight shift. Exactly what you see in Simon etc.

Calvin also comes in pretty hot with a forward bend to his posture before that harsh knife edge plant. He's hopping/skittering over the drive step only very briefly, getting just enough spring off that rear foot. So there's some efficiency to that in some ways, but I bet it's hard on that plant ankle, and I wonder what would happen if he adjusted his posture and drive side just a bit. It might smooth the swing out in the front side and maybe there's a little more power to be found there. Monday morning speculation, of course.

By the way, I saw the "Thriller arms" dilemma above - I started to clean that up by doing extreme vertical pumps/mills, then bringing it more horizontal with my posture and pumping it more like you see McBeth and others do. McBeth has talked about having trouble controlling his drives and actually looks like he has recently let a bit more pump back into his swing, which I found interesting.

 

[Melonhusk]

For most people the "center"/"Center of gravity"/CoG is near the belly button.

I think it's tricky to understand static positions without understanding the mechanics and dynamics. And all of these players are very well developed so they can adjust their postures to be more extreme to use the same mechanics we talk about here to greater effect (due to lots and lots of practice with good mechanics)

Simon's always been interesting to me because his lower body is a bit hard to understand in static images - I think his hips are more naturally externally rotated due to his anatomy, and he has found a way to hinge in on a pretty tilted approach. He stays higher on his rear foot w/ the heel off the ground than most players. I think it takes a particular anatomy and/or very strong legs to get proper leverage like that.

Very true about static images being potentially misleading without context! To your second point that's one of the things that I find is making me go in circles; I just don't have a great sense of what my body wants to do or is built to do. I think I've felt most comfortable so far in my disc golf journey doing a more vertical outside to in GG sort of thing (not that I had it nailed by any means)



but that looks and feels very different from how I naturally learned to throw frisbees for 10 years, before I even thought about form and filming myself. So I don't know!

By the way, I saw the "Thriller arms" dilemma above - I started to clean that up by doing extreme vertical pumps/mills, then bringing it more horizontal with my posture and pumping it more like you see McBeth and others do. McBeth has talked about having trouble controlling his drives and actually looks like he has recently let a bit more pump back into his swing, which I found interesting.

Yeah for a second there the thriller arms were the only way that I had a shot at keeping my legs from getting too far out in front of me, it felt like it helped me sort of twist my upper half against my lower half. Once SW pointed out that it was not optimal, I found that I could actually make it work with a more IR pump, having sort of gotten a better feel for how to move my lower half with the thriller pump. Now I don't know what I'm doing, most days I try a pretty vertical pump like you say, other days it actually feels better to just do a bit of an elbow pump. I don't know where I'm at right now! Thanks for all the insight though.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks better there, but still turning your head back too early and too far. Your head is already turned away before your head passes forward over your rear foot, so it's not winding or coiling up from inside the rear foot.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Pardon the drive by thoughts from a fellow learner.

I see what you mean, yeah. It almost doesn't even really make sense to me right now, how to push my hips forward enough without turning my hips like I do there. I mean maybe freak athletes aren't always the best example, but positions like this:

remain pretty elusive to me. When you say center, where is that exactly? I'm guessing somewhere around the hips or the core, but I'm curious.

I feel like your position here is fairly close to this elusive stance.

If you were to turn your head back later per SW's suggestion I bet you'd look even closer. When I was exploring this stance, I found my head and reach back turning back early matched up with letting my weight get too far behind me (right, from angle of video). When I focus on those my stance naturally gets closer to the Simon pose there.

If I forget about position but try to just fall forward (left, from angle of video) and follow my weight, it happens mostly naturally.

Does Calvin turn back too far?



It seems like he gets his hips turned back pretty far pretty early, but he also clearly has a ton of momentum down the teepad. It's interesting, he and Seppo have pretty similar forms in a lot of ways.

(Take w/ grain of salt) IMHO he compensates with a very long pause from his turn back to his swing, letting him get his weight forward in to the plant. There are a few players that seem to do this (early reach back + long pause).

 

[Melonhusk]

Pardon the drive by thoughts from a fellow learner.



I feel like your position here is fairly close to this elusive stance.

If you were to turn your head back later per SW's suggestion I bet you'd look even closer. When I was exploring this stance, I found my head and reach back turning back early matched up with letting my weight get too far behind me (right, from angle of video). When I focus on those my stance naturally gets closer to the Simon pose there.

If I forget about position but try to just fall forward (left, from angle of video) and follow my weight, it happens mostly naturally.




(Take w/ grain of salt) IMHO he compensates with a very long pause from his turn back to his swing, letting him get his weight forward in to the plant. There are a few players that seem to do this (early reach back + long pause).

I appreciate the drive by! And that makes a lot of sense, that keeping the head turned forward longer would help keep the weight committed forward. I think one of my biggest problems right now is when my footwork starts to feel rushed (i.e. my weight is actually moving properly) I get scared and put on the brakes subconsciously.

Looks better there, but still turning your head back too early and too far. Your head is already turned away before your head passes forward over your rear foot, so it's not winding or coiling up from inside the rear foot.

That's good to know that that did look better, I think I'm just going to go back to working on that style for a bit and get my x step to work with it.

I got these two today:





I honestly think they look a little worse than the video I posted from early May above, but maybe I turned my head a liiiittle later, and maybe I got my weight moving a little better. Still a long ways to go but I at least got a bit of distance back.

One other thing is I was pulling everything way, way right, and often up too. Both of those throws were just supposed to be straight flat low shots, and that first throw came out as a spike hyzer (it was still one of the better throws of the day).

Thanks!

 

[Icarus]

Forget your head movement for a minute. Go back to what SW22 noted on page 24 regarding slowing down on the first step and x-stepping too far in front of your center.

Look at the picture below. Right now you are quickly stepping into the x-step, but because your center of mass (CoM) is so far behind your plant leg, you end up slowing down as your weight travels far enough to begin to fall towards the plant. This leads to your throw going fast-slow-slow (first step - x-step - plant), and essentially loses most of your momentum from the first step. By the time your right foot cross back in front of your x-step foot, your CoM should be at/past your x-step foot in order to keep your momentum.

This CoM being off also causes you to rise into the x-step and sink rapidly on your throws that you posted - it looked like they were sent sky-high.


Hershyzer/butt-wipe drills. Do them.

*Shameless use of my own screenshot, sorry, it was close at hand.

 

[Melonhusk]

Forget your head movement for a minute. Go back to what SW22 noted on page 24 regarding slowing down on the first step and x-stepping too far in front of your center.

Look at the picture below. Right now you are quickly stepping into the x-step, but because your center of mass (CoM) is so far behind your plant leg, you end up slowing down as your weight travels far enough to begin to fall towards the plant. This leads to your throw going fast-slow-slow (first step - x-step - plant), and essentially loses most of your momentum from the first step. By the time your right foot cross back in front of your x-step foot, your CoM should be at/past your x-step foot in order to keep your momentum.

This CoM being off also causes you to rise into the x-step and sink rapidly on your throws that you posted - it looked like they were sent sky-high.


Hershyzer/butt-wipe drills. Do them.

*Shameless use of my own screenshot, sorry, it was close at hand.

I'm still having trouble conceptually with the quick/slow first step - to me it seems like I'm still lacking in how much momentum I'm generating with my first step, but if I think "slower first step", that usually just cues me to be even less explosive with that step.

Can you elaborate more on how you cue that first step to be slow, but also get your momentum moving the right way? I went and found the source video for those screenshots and to me it looks to me like your right leg is moving pretty quick, it's just that you have your hips far ahead of your right foot from the get go, which naturally gets your momentum moving much better.
I'm not discounting the idea of course! If thinking "slow first step" gets you there I'm all for it, I'm just not feeling the connection yet, or else not thinking about the advice the right way yet.

 

[Icarus]

The idea isn't about changing speed. It's about smoothly transitioning momentum through thebx-step. Maintain the same forward speed in your CoM until the plant.

Yes, my hips are leading going into the x-step. That's the idea. Look at Gibson's, Simon's, or even Calvin's form in the video above. All lead with their hips. You are as well, but are leaning away from your direction of travel, meaning you slow down during the x-step because your CoM has to travel over your x-step foot before you can go into the plant.

 

[Icarus]

I took a minute and found a Gibson again just for a good comparison for you and a pro in terms of initial movement - just to reinforce my point above.

 

[Brychanus]

Hershyzer/butt-wipe drills. Do them.

:thmbup:

 

[Melonhusk]

The idea isn't about changing speed. It's about smoothly transitioning momentum through thebx-step. Maintain the same forward speed in your CoM until the plant.

Yes, my hips are leading going into the x-step. That's the idea. Look at Gibson's, Simon's, or even Calvin's form in the video above. All lead with their hips. You are as well, but are leaning away from your direction of travel, meaning you slow down during the x-step because your CoM has to travel over your x-step foot before you can go into the plant.

Yeah, I'm with you on all this, maybe the slow first step cue just doesn't click for me yet. What's helped me in the past is trying to basically fall down the teepad and then catch myself with the plant; I'm so used to being leaned back like this that getting my center far enough past my feet feels like I'm gonna totally lose my balance. Anyway, thanks!

 

[Brychanus]

I'm so used to being leaned back like this that getting my center far enough past my feet feels like I'm gonna totally lose my balance. Anyway, thanks!

Yep, gotta break that habit or it'll remain a roadblock.

Can do it from hershyzer and also shift from behind from a neutral stance Shawn Clement style to get your brain to learn to surrender to the trust fall.

 

[Melonhusk]

Finally some progress I think! I just drilled "trust falls" until I could reliably get it to work. The "slow first step" makes sense now, I think fundamentally I was just too leaned back for it to work before. It sort of helped to think of everything as starting from my shoulder, like I was trying to fall shoulder first into a wall, whereas before I was thinking more falling hip first, keeping me from committing all the way.



Everything else obviously looks horrible; once I get on my left foot my left leg seems to just be kind of locking out, and I think maybe I'm not hinging enough or else coming forward too early. This is definitely no bueno:

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

 

[bryantlikes]

Everything else obviously looks horrible; once I get on my left foot my left leg seems to just be kind of locking out, and I think maybe I'm not hinging enough or else coming forward too early. This is definitely no bueno:

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

That looks very similar to something in my own form that I've been trying to correct. I think it comes from starting to attempt to shift from behind and trust fall, you end up falling downward instead of forward. I found a section in the power of posture where seabas22 talks about the spine switching from being over the rear leg to being over the front leg.

https://youtu.be/Q5xfv9jPqZs?t=337

Once I started doing that I was no longer tilted down (like your screen grab) and my swing angle was much better.

I've just been practicing this one move and you can really feel a big difference.

1) Spine over rear leg, when you do the crush the can weight shift you feel kind of stuck, meaning nothing else happens.

2) Spine over front leg, after the crush the can your shoulders automatically start the swing rotation and the energy gets transferred to the upper body.

Hope this helps!

 

[Melonhusk]

That looks very similar to something in my own form that I've been trying to correct. I think it comes from starting to attempt to shift from behind and trust fall, you end up falling downward instead of forward. I found a section in the power of posture where seabas22 talks about the spine switching from being over the rear leg to being over the front leg.

https://youtu.be/Q5xfv9jPqZs?t=337

Once I started doing that I was no longer tilted down (like your screen grab) and my swing angle was much better.

I've just been practicing this one move and you can really feel a big difference.

1) Spine over rear leg, when you do the crush the can weight shift you feel kind of stuck, meaning nothing else happens.

2) Spine over front leg, after the crush the can your shoulders automatically start the swing rotation and the energy gets transferred to the upper body.

Hope this helps!

Yeah you're spot on I think, spine is totally over the back leg all the way through the throw. Thanks!

 

[SocraDeez]

This is a really good tip/ useful swing cue for spine feeling/posture on the frontside of the swingframe:

Note how your head tilts over so right ear is down into your shoulder, kind of want to do the opposite. I think about my chin moving forward ahead of the top of the head.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

Same caveat, take me with a grain of salt

everything else obviously looks horrible; once I get on my left foot my left leg seems to just be kind of locking out, and I think maybe I'm not hinging enough or else coming forward too early. This is definitely no bueno:

Re the "no bueno" part, I think I had and fixed that. It was where I was conceptually pulling from -- my upper back. Eventually I thought of it like a progression -- people throw with their wrist, then their arm. Then their upper body. Then their back. Then eventually, they throw with their hips. Maybe this is BS, but that's what I went through and now when I visualize the transition from falling to planting and swinging, I try to really feel my hip, not my back, pulling my arm. Voila, my upper body tilt disappeared.

So maybe you are pulling with your upper torso / back?

 

[Melonhusk]

Same caveat, take me with a grain of salt



Re the "no bueno" part, I think I had and fixed that. It was where I was conceptually pulling from -- my upper back. Eventually I thought of it like a progression -- people throw with their wrist, then their arm. Then their upper body. Then their back. Then eventually, they throw with their hips. Maybe this is BS, but that's what I went through and now when I visualize the transition from falling to planting and swinging, I try to really feel my hip, not my back, pulling my arm. Voila, my upper body tilt disappeared.

So maybe you are pulling with your upper torso / back?

Interesting, yeah I think that sort of speaks to what I'm going through! I do think that though I could be wrong or it could be different for different people there is a moment where we should swing with the shoulder, but my problem right now seems to be getting my hips moving properly underneath me; my upper body is jumping ahead of the sequence. I think!



I'm having a lot of issues right now, but at the same time I feel sort of close to figuring something out. A big thing I started to feel this week was the difference between swinging over the front leg so that the plant foot stays firmly planted, and spinning out, like I've tended to do in the past. Makes a huge difference in how powerful the swing feels! In practice swings I can feel my weight shift forward so much more, so it feels like I'm really getting everything on the front leg. Unfortunately the rest of my swing is a bit too messed up right now to reap the benefits of that.




Here's a standstill for reference, it looks better than the x steps but it looks like I'm probably swinging a little early/not closed off enough, plus maybe not enough hinge, which is causing me to go over the top a bit? Or it could be something else I don't realize with my legs/weight transfer.








For the x steps, it seemed like I was getting the "trust fall" part right, or at least better, and I felt like I was swinging over my front foot, but something was going wrong in the weight transfer or I was just swinging or opening up early. Or all of the above! It felt like I had trouble getting into this kind of position:

coiled into my back leg while also pushing my hips forward. My back leg is stiff enough that I'm getting good leverage into it (I feel like at least), but it doesn't seem to be pushing my hips forward linearly, I'm just kind of riding it into the ground.

Is the problem that my first step is turning my hips back too much maybe? I do notice I'm getting turned back really early.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

You have weird motion patterns/hitches.

Your SS seems like you are trying to reverse your hips motion, instead of moving them in one fluid circular motion.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973


You drop your arm/disc into the backswing instead of levitating them, and then rises during the swing.

 

[Melonhusk]

You have weird motion patterns/hitches.

lol. Never a truer word spoken, especially when I feel as uncomfortable throwing as I did yesterday.

Your SS seems like you are trying to reverse your hips motion, instead of moving them in one fluid circular motion.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

Interesting, yeah I guess I was trying to reverse the hip motion, sort of just trying to coil up on my back leg and then drive from there, sort of a golf backswing idea. Is that not such a good approach, or did I just execute poorly? I'll try some figure eight standstills in any case!

You drop your arm/disc into the backswing instead of levitating them, and then rises during the swing.

Funny I was just watching that Jared Roan video today, it made me think of Kyle Klein. You're right, I wonder if I'm just trying to levitate too early, a consequence of how early I'm turning back? I intend to levitate the disc, but I feel like it has to hang out back there for so long that there's no way it can levitate without me consciously holding it up, probably causing some tension too. I did some footwork today unfilmed getting my posture more sideways to the target, more like that picture of Eagle, and though I don't know how it works with a disc yet the rhythm and balance of it felt waayy better. So I'm hoping for better results next time. Thanks!