Broken Disc in Basket

[BillFleming]

I saw an interesting question on FB and there were two 'thoughts' about what the decision should be.

Situation: Disc breaks in two as it enters the basket. The smaller piece is in the basket. Has the hole been completed? Or does the player need to putt from where the larger piece is?

The rules:

805.01 Establishing a Position
D. If a thrown disc breaks into pieces, its position is that of the largest piece.

807 Completing the Hole
B. In order to complete a hole with a basket target, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the tray or the chains below the chain support.

In the FB discussion, several think the hole was not completed as the largest piece is on the ground (805.01.D). However, a few felt that the hole was completed since a portion of the disc is in the basket. 807.B allows the hole to be completed if the disc is supported by the tray, so really no part has to be "in" the basket and only a small part is required to be within the basket area. For example a disc that is stuck in the tray opening is good, even though more than half the disc is outside the tray. Likewise, a disc hanging from a tray stub has the majority of the disc outside the tray.

So, what would be the ruling in the situation I described at the beginning?

 

[Skamanda]

I saw an interesting question on FB and there were two 'thoughts' about what the decision should be.

Situation: Disc breaks in two as it enters the basket. The smaller piece is in the basket. Has the hole been completed? Or does the player need to putt from where the larger piece is?

The rules:




In the FB discussion, several think the hole was not completed as the largest piece is on the ground (805.01.D). However, a few felt that the hole was completed since a portion of the disc is in the basket. 807.B allows the hole to be completed if the disc is supported by the tray, so really no part has to be "in" the basket and only a small part is required to be within the basket area. For example a disc that is stuck in the tray opening is good, even though more than half the disc is outside the tray. Likewise, a disc hanging from a tray stub has the majority of the disc outside the tray.

So, what would be the ruling in the situation I described at the beginning?

The rules seem pretty clear on that one, unless the bigger pieces were supported by the basket, and then fell through. Unless that happened, if the larger piece is on the ground, it's not in the basket. I'd say it could be argued that if it broke and the bigger piece fell through the basket, it'd be the TD's discretion.

 

[BillFleming]

The rules seem pretty clear on that one, unless the bigger pieces were supported by the basket, and then fell through. Unless that happened, if the larger piece is on the ground, it's not in the basket. I'd say it could be argued that if it broke and the bigger piece fell through the basket, it'd be the TD's discretion.

But this is where things get interesting/confusing. If a disc is supported by a tray nub...the hole is completed. If you are walking up to collect the disc and it falls from the nub....it is still good and you don't have to putt again. So I would think that if the disc broke as it entered the basket and the largest piece landed outside the basket it would still be good. But it could also be looked at similar to a disc hitting the chains/pole and 'spitting out'. You still have to putt again from where the disc lies....so maybe the answer is that the largest piece counts as a 'spit out' and the player needs to putt.

 

[txmxer]

Play the largest piece.

 

[dmoore1998]

But this is where things get interesting/confusing. If a disc is supported by a tray nub...the hole is completed. If you are walking up to collect the disc and it falls from the nub....it is still good and you don't have to putt again. So I would think that if the disc broke as it entered the basket and the largest piece landed outside the basket it would still be good. But it could also be looked at similar to a disc hitting the chains/pole and 'spitting out'. You still have to putt again from where the disc lies....so maybe the answer is that the largest piece counts as a 'spit out' and the player needs to putt.

I would have said the largest piece is "the disc" for purposes of defining things which count or don't count as in the basket or supported by the basket. It also says the disc must "come to rest" when it is supported by the tray or chains...if the disc broke as it entered, it has not come to rest.

I think you still have to tap out the putt.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You've holed out plus half a stroke penalty?

 

[_MTL_]

Largest piece is always the lie when this occurs.

 

[The Mickstar]

It has to be the larger piece.

A disc leaves some small (usually microscopic) piece behind every time it hits the chains/tray. We don't count those shots as made.

 

[seedlings]

The only disc I've seen come apart -that wasn't hit by the park & rec mower- was vintage-ish Innova CE on a tree hit. If either part had made it to the basket, he'd have my vote for completed.

[internet search noises] Where's that 'spirit of the game' rule to rule all rules?

 

[robdeforge]

The only disc I've seen come apart -that wasn't hit by the park & rec mower- was vintage-ish Innova CE on a tree hit. If either part had made it to the basket, he'd have my vote for completed.

[internet search noises] Where's that 'spirit of the game' rule to rule all rules?

These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

the rules clearly cover this.

Question: Did the disc break into pieces?
Answer: Yes
Resolution: If a thrown disc breaks into pieces, its position is that of the largest piece.

this is about as clear cut a ruling as I can think of tbh

 

[seedlings]

the rules clearly cover this.

Question: Did the disc break into pieces?
Answer: Yes
Resolution: If a thrown disc breaks into pieces, its position is that of the largest piece.

this is about as clear cut a ruling as I can think of tbh

Respectfully disagree. Technically, Establishing a Position is a wholly different section than Completing the Hole, which, for me, goes back to the fairness verbiage. This is even more rare than the 30 second rule, which also reverts back to fairness and spirit if the game.

 

[Steve West]

Respectfully disagree. Technically, Establishing a Position is a wholly different section than Completing the Hole, which, for me, goes back to the fairness verbiage. This is even more rare than the 30 second rule, which also reverts back to fairness and spirit if the game.

You make a good point.

I would say the closest existing rule is the one that says what to do about a broken disc, and a logical extension would be to treat the biggest part AS the disc. If that biggest part comes to rest supported by the tray or the chains below the chain support, the hole is complete.

I would reject the idea that having a small piece in the tray means that the disc is partially supported by the target. My reasoning is that the position of a broken disc does not depend on the smaller pieces at all. For example, the rule could have said the position is the center of all the pieces, but it doesn't say that. I don't see any indication that the smaller pieces matter at all for any other rules, so I can't see how to extend that logic to saying a small piece is still part of the disc.

Unlike rulings which can't be decided by a majority of the group, "fairness" is not slanted toward a preference for the thrower. It must be fair to all the other players in the division as well.

 

[BillFleming]

From the responses, I think the best way to look at it for making a determination is "What happened to the largest piece?" If the largest portion is outside the basket (on the ground, wherever but not 'in the basket' by the rules), then it is a 'spit/bounce out' and the player needs to putt.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Age old question answered: size matters.

 

[robdeforge]

Respectfully disagree. Technically, Establishing a Position is a wholly different section than Completing the Hole, which, for me, goes back to the fairness verbiage. This is even more rare than the 30 second rule, which also reverts back to fairness and spirit if the game.

If you are going by Completing the Hole, one of the criteria is:

it must come to rest supported by the tray or the chains below the chain support.

Are you suggesting that you think that it's possible that the disc in question came to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support and THEN broke into pieces? That's the only way that I can see this making any sense, but it also seems entirely illogical. The disc most likely broke into multiple pieces upon impact, making it impossible for it to come to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support (unless the largest piece of the broken disc then comes to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support).

 

[chevis]

stop putting so hard

 

[txmxer]

stop putting so hard

Lol.

I have yet to break a disc, but most of my stuff is pretty new. So maybe not brittle enough to shatter

 

[ru4por]

Lol.

I have yet to break a disc, but most of my stuff is pretty new. So maybe not brittle enough to shatter

It is far more common in colder climates.

 

[seedlings]

If you are going by Completing the Hole, one of the criteria is:


Are you suggesting that you think that it's possible that the disc in question came to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support and THEN broke into pieces? That's the only way that I can see this making any sense, but it also seems entirely illogical. The disc most likely broke into multiple pieces upon impact, making it impossible for it to come to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support (unless the largest piece of the broken disc then comes to rest supported by the tray or chains below the chain support).

Just going by OP: Part of the disc is in the basket. Like you, I've never seen this happen and never will. But since we're spitballing here… I'm saying since part of the disc is in the basket supported according to the rules, then we jump to the section on completing a hole, instead of the section on determining the lie… giving the benefit of doubt to the player… just like the 30s rule is not hard and fast and gives benefit to the player. I'm saying nothing more or less than that.

The debate is between which rule applies: completing the hole OR determining the lie. I say give benefit to the player, that's all.

Edit: I'm also not saying mine is the only way to approach the situation. I understand the counter argument that uses the larger piece to determine the lie. I would disagree if I were on the card. And if we spent several minutes to determine an answer… that's like spending minutes determining if a disc is in bounds. If it's unclear- benefit to player.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Edit: I'm also not saying mine is the only way to approach the situation. I understand the counter argument that uses the larger piece to determine the lie. I would disagree if I were on the card. And if we spent several minutes to determine an answer… that's like spending minutes determining if a disc is in bounds. If it's unclear- benefit to player.

It's "benefit to the player" in sanctioned play when the vote in the group on the ruling is tied. If the ruling itself is unclear, then the player should take a provisional by marking and playing from the largest piece and let the TD decide after the round whether the small piece is ruled a hole out or not.