Buncr Talk

[Steve West]

It's a failure on the part of the RC to recognize that LOP relief should be the primary option for the Relief Area rule with last point inbounds or drop zone as alternatives IF LOP relief was not possible.

Failure is a rather strong word which should not be applied to good-faith choices which were made in light of several competing principles.

It was a choice to use "like OB" so that the rule would not generate situations where more "what if" scenarios would be needed in cases where the rule could not be applied.

Simple LOP could have led to problems where there is no lie out of the sand trap. Therefore, "take LOP" - by itself - cannot be the only rule; as you acknowledge. "Mark as if it is OB" CAN be the only rule. And it is less complicated than "Take relief along the LOP, unless you can't, then mark as if it was OB".

"As if OB" also only requires players to know only one way to mark, not two different ways for the same rule.

Players and Directors are more familiar with marking discs that have gone OB than they are with taking relief along the LOP. I rarely meet a player who does not know where to mark when a disc goes OB. Certainly never a TD. I've met very few (in the Am sphere) who know how to take LOP relief. Even Course Directors at Am Worlds have said: "water is casual, so take your meter."

There is nothing more inherently "correct" about a mark back along the LOP than a mark at the last point not in Relief Area. One could say LOP is less "correct" because the disc never actually went there. Point being, it's an arbitrary choice with no truth derivable from natural laws.

LOP relief is fine for puddles and such, but was never intended to apply to large TD-designated areas like, say, cart path and beyond. The way to mark discs that go OB has a history of working for large, TD-designated, no-play areas.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The RC created the Relief Area and yet applied OB marking rules where OB implies a penalty even though a relief area does not have one. Talk about confusion in comparison to what would seem to be a simpler rule called Required Relief Area which could follow the same concept as Casual (optional) Relief Areas. "When landing in a Required Relief Area (buncr), mark at the drop zone if provided. Or, mark back from the target on the Line of Play to the boundary of the Relief Area if accessible. If Drop Zone not provided and LOP relief marking would be out of bounds, mark at a boundary of Relief Area no closer to the target. No penalty for landing in a relief area." The same alternative marking options could be made available for Casual Relief with the primary difference that taking relief is optional. Much simpler to combine these no penalty relief rules and there's no crossover between Relief wording and OB wording.

But the main benefit for buncr relief from a design standpoint is that it would produce a distance penalty in most cases when properly utilized. In addition to the confusion of OB rules applied to a relief area, the last point inbounds will not always provide the distance penalty which should be the intent of creating a Required Relief Area in the first place. Rules need to account for poor design choices. If the TD botches the location of a Required Relief Area such that a player still can't mark their new lie following the options available, worst case is the player must take an Abandoned Throw penalty.

 

[biscoe]

I'm with Steve on this one. Players know what "play it as OB without penalty" means already. The improvement in some aspect of the rule would need to be significant to overcome that simple fact. I do dislike it when "last place in" vastly improves a bad shot but don't know that it offends me enough to want a change. I had one Relief Area at Raptor's Roost where I thought it was giving way too much help to what were truly bad shots to get in the area to begin with. I switched it to OB- problem solved. Now the player throwing there gets something less than a full stroke penalty in Chuck-speak since he gets an improved lie along with the penalty stroke.

 

[cheesethin]

...But the main benefit for buncr relief from a design standpoint is that it would produce a distance penalty in most cases when properly utilized...

[Caveat] Never designed a course. [/Caveat]

This seems like a potential useful design element. The first example that springs to mind is near to the basket - where if you miss your landing and land in the sand-trap/required relief along LOP area, you get a longer putt, making for a distance penalty rather than a stroke penalty.

And I think Relief Areas (play as OB without penalty) are also a good design choice in the right situation.

Should Required Relief along LOP be added into the rules as an additional type of Restricted Area? I don't see it necessarily as an either/or situation between that and the current Relief Area.

Possibly there's an issue of players not understanding all the different types of Restricted Areas, and how to play them. But that is a different question from are they a useful design option?

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[CrowLegs]

This may be oversimplifying it, but why not require a drop zone at each bunkr? If you land in the sand trap (or whatever), you throw from a designated place at the edge of that trap (without penalty stroke). It would not take much more time to paint a little drop zone over what it would take to mark the trap. If a TD didn't want to do that, they could just make it normal OB area.

 

[biscoe]

Possibly there's an issue of players not understanding all the different types of Restricted Areas, and how to play them. But that is a different question from are they a useful design option?

I don't view it as a different question. Design is all about how players relate to the course.

...and Lord I hate the term "buncr" (Sorry Chuck).

 

[araytx]

I don't view it as a different question. Design is all about how players relate to the course.

...and Lord I hate the term "buncr" (Sorry Chuck).

History lesson for the youngsters:

"buncr" is a portmanteau of "bunker" (from golf) and Casual Relief (from disc golf). It was originally spelled "bunCR".

 

[BillFleming]

History lesson for the youngsters:

"buncr" is a portmanteau of "bunker" (from golf) and Casual Relief (from disc golf). It was originally spelled "bunCR".

THANK YOU! I was thinking that it was a misspelling of bunker and that following posters weren't correcting it. Then with so many using the 'misspelling', I started to wonder if that was a term I didn't know and was about to look it up.

 

[krupicka]

There are definitely a number of places where I think a penalty free mandatory casual relief on LOP makes a lot of sense. For smaller areas, the next lie is much more precise as one can see where the disc is sitting and go back on the LOP. I can also know of some areas where the current relief area using OB type choices for next lie would be needed. But I come up with a lot more cases of the former and less of the latter, that's for sure.

The rules currently define casual area (806.03) and relief area (806.04). If there were to be an area to be played as a casual area but relief is required to be taken rather than optional, what would it be called (other than BunCR)?

 

[Rastnav]

There are definitely a number of places where I think a penalty free mandatory casual relief on LOP makes a lot of sense. For smaller areas, the next lie is much more precise as one can see where the disc is sitting and go back on the LOP. I can also know of some areas where the current relief area using OB type choices for next lie would be needed. But I come up with a lot more cases of the former and less of the latter, that's for sure.

The rules currently define casual area (806.03) and relief area (806.04). If there were to be an area to be played as a casual area but relief is required to be taken rather than optional, what would it be called (other than BunCR)?

Strictly casual?

I'll show myself out.

 

[biscoe]

THANK YOU! I was thinking that it was a misspelling of bunker and that following posters weren't correcting it. Then with so many using the 'misspelling', I started to wonder if that was a term I didn't know and was about to look it up.

Which is why i dislike it. It is confusing, even moreso on old golf courses.

"Is this bunker a buncr?"

 

[biscoe]

The rules currently define casual area (806.03) and relief area (806.04). If there were to be an area to be played as a casual area but relief is required to be taken rather than optional, what would it be called (other than BunCR)?

I would be OK with "Required Relief Area"

 

[cheesethin]

I would be OK with "Required Relief Area"

Since we already have a Relief Area, I think the two would get confused. What with one name being contained within the other.


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[Rastnav]

What about just "Line of Play Area"? The rule contained in the name .

If you want to give it something that acronyms well, then Strict Line Of Play area, but maybe S.L.O.P. isn't the best look.

 

[ToddL]

My only experiences with creating a Relief Area on a course have really been safety issues. All of the sudden a sinkhole appeared in the middle of a fairway, so I flagged it off and declared Relief Area instead of Casual Area. My thinking was that if a person rolls backwards into the relief area, I didn't want to punish them by making them move backwards 50'. It was my attempt to be as fair to the player's original throw while still accounting for safety.

However, sometimes that's not the TDs intention. Relief Area works great for safety issues. Chuck's LOPCR area works better for course difficulty issues.

I would be OK with "Required Relief Area"

Since Relief Area is already a thing, and a completely different thing, it'd be best to not mix the terms.

You're essentially looking for a Required Casual Area. Some place that is treated like a casual area, but is required instead of optional. The old rulebooks sort of had an answer for that with the Bluebonnets question in the Q&A, but that's been removed and the casual relief rules have been modified.

The basic question is: Can a TD force you to take casual relief? As the rules stand now, the player always has the option to play from inside the casual area.

 

[ToddL]

Which is why i dislike it. It is confusing, even moreso on old golf courses.

"Is this bunker a buncr?"

I always change the pronunciation of Buncr in my head to "Bunsur".

 

[Steve West]

Relief Area works great for safety issues. Chuck's LOPCR area works better for course difficulty issues.

How so? Most if the time the disc will enter from the side away from the target anyway. If they get across then fall back, so what? That happens when they try to clear OB water, too.

If you don't want the players to get the advantage of clearing the Relief Area and falling back, you can make the Relief Area two or three feet bigger.

Is there an advantage to forced LOP relief that couldn't be handled by a DZ?

 

[krupicka]

It could be handled by a DZ, but the forced LOP can handle it better for some scenarios.

The other problem is that the Relief Area rules point to the OB rules which have the Tour Manager approval requirement if you want to limit last place in bounds. So properly if you want to limit a relief area to just a drop zone, the tour manager needs to grant an exception.

 

[cheesethin]

If I was in charge of names, I'd use Relief Area for required LOP relief instead. And I'd rename the penalty free OB area something else.

Then pretty much all, but not quite, the mentions of relief in the rules would refer to LOP.

Line of play:
Optional Relief
Casual Relief
Relief from Obstacles
Relief Area (required)

That wouldn't cause any confusion would it?



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[Steve West]

I'm coming around a little. However, if there was a forced LOP area, it would need to be designated as such by the TD. So, it presumably would always have a safe lie all around it. Because TDs are perfect and can foresee everything.


(A very little, I guess.)


On the other hand, I don't see anything precious about LOP itself. If I threw a disc over a spot, why should I not get that spot for cases when the disc keeps on going to another spot where I can't play from?


Other types of relief besides LOP make more sense in other contexts. Like lateral relief from a stream running down the fairway. However, last point on the playing surface is the only one that can work in all situations.


LOP casual relief can result in unrelievable cases the TD couldn't have foreseen. A puddle by a fence, for example.


If I were to start fresh, I would use the last point on the playing surface as the mark for all situations where the player may move the lie. In some areas there would be a penalty. Others not. From some areas the player could choose to move the lie, others not.