"Championship Courses"

[DavidSauls]

I want to design a Championship Mini-Disc Golf Course.
:|

It's funny...we once built a 9-hole mini-course at Stoney Hill, in conjunction with a tournament we were hosting, to be a Saturday evening diversion. People were predicting it would be the toughest mini course ever -- just because we were the ones designing it.

I'm sure it wasn't the toughest ever, but it was a mini-version of Stoney Hill, with elevated baskets, drop offs, tight gaps, big hills, and water hazards.

 

[njgrosser]

It's because I grew up there, but I always use Idlewild as the measuring stick for a "championship" course. Good scenery, limited OB, and solid tees/baskets (even though there aren't multiple tees/baskets).

One underrated point about Idlewild: it feels fair. There's very little gimmick to Idlewild. It rewards great throws and punishes not-great throws. There are serious course-management decisions to be made where a pro can play "conservatively" and end up around -5 in a round, or play aggressively and have an equal change of ending up -10 or +5. Not many courses have that same dynamic.

Most importantly, though (to me), I think having a wide variety of holes is what makes it a real "championship" course. People like watching Idlewild (and playing it) because no two holes are the same. It rewards both incredible accuracy in the woods while also allowing for all-out bombs on Holes 1 and 16. There are serious risk/reward decisions involving water on Hole 2 and new Hole 5 (old Hole 4). You can ace-run Holes 9 and 11 if you want, but you may be better off laying up for the birdie. And every year, the tournament provides a healthy dose of drama on Holes 17 and 18 to close the round.

There are other courses that are close to, equal, or exceed Idlewild. But to me, it's an obvious "championship" course.

 

[Shallows]

Championship is often (and I think should be) used synonymously with Gold level course as defined by the PDGA: https://www.pdga.com/course-development/skill-level-guidelines

 

[Steve West]

I multiplied 432 "championship" tournaments by 57 available divisions by 26 years of competition, with the result convincing me that there are more than enough going around, and I'm missing my share.

Come up to MN Ams. That where I got my 3x. You'll just need to beat me to get one.

 

[foxdawg10]

I multiplied 432 "championship" tournaments by 57 available divisions by 26 years of competition, with the result convincing me that there are more than enough going around, and I'm missing my share.

I once finished second in the World Zephyr Championships. Now that is one I would like in the old trophy case.

 

[seedlings]

Practical purposes (locally anyway) it's length.
Blue Valley Championship Course 11,000ft
Cedar Ridge 4,800ft

 

[Three Putt]

It seems more of a marketing term.

Likely long, lots of artificial OB. Level of difficulty and features / amenities likely varies with level of championship: Local, state, national, world.

I ran White Birch for several years in the 90's; it's a 1979 course and the sign at the driveway said (and still does) "Missouri's First Professional Course." Which...the word "professional" was weird. It was generally accepted that it was Missouri's first course (Oak Grove in Springfield also makes this claim, but Ed told me personally that White Birch was first) so what did adding "professional" to that sign do exactly?

Marketing.

Disc golf was this weird thing you did with Frisbees in 1979, and they spent tax money on weird contraptions to throw Frisbees at. They wanted it to seem legit to the locals, so they called it a "professional" course.

Fast forward 40-ish years and it's a 3,500' pitch and putt with a sign that says it's a professional disc golf course.

Which is what most of this is; championship course is just a throwaway term that places use for marketing. It doesn't have a definition. In practice it usually means "you could hold a B tier here."

 

[BogeyNoMore]

One underrated point about Idlewild: it feels fair. There's very little gimmick to Idlewild. It rewards great throws and punishes not-great throws.

Not bashing Idlewild, or your post as a whole. Pretty much agree with it, but...

I have to point out the winding creek hole (#17, in DGPT's 18 hole layout). Typically, landing OB is the result of a bad throw, or a bad kick. Not so on that hole. Two players can throw essentially the same shot, and get results different enough to affect the tourament. It's basically the OB equivalent of a plinko hole, where the difference between birdie and bogie is often more a matter of luck, than skill.

One hole doesn't necessary make Idlewild unfair, but I honestly think they could improve that hole be eliminating some of the OB/luck.

Toboggan #9 was a plinko type of hole, where the difference between par and birdie was a matter of luck as to where your disc landed acter crashing through the canopy. They finally fixed it for 2022, and chance plays a much lesser role in who gets a birdie look (and who doesn't).

 

[jakebake91]

In my experience it usually means stupid long.

Don't forget the 400+ miles of arbitrarily placed OB rope!!

 

[njgrosser]

Not bashing Idlewild, or your post as a whole. Pretty much agree with it, but...

I have to point out the winding creek hole (#17, in DGPT's 18 hole layout). Typically, landing OB is the result of a bad throw, or a bad kick. Not so on that hole. Two players can throw essentially the same shot, and get results different enough to affect the tourament. It's basically the OB equivalent of a plinko hole, where the difference between birdie and bogie is often more a matter of luck, than skill.

One hole doesn't necessary make Idlewild unfair, but I honestly think they could improve that hole be eliminating some of the OB/luck.

This is a completely valid point.

There is a "safe" landing area off to the right from the tee, but it still has some trees that you have to contend with. I think if they selected a few trees to remove to give a straighter non-plinko line to the basket, it would improve the hole. With slightly fewer trees, you may see more people try to go for the ace (ala Clemmons in the final round this year) to risk the bounce into the OB creek, instead of the more conventional play of "safely" throwing to the right to go for a long birdie putt.

 

[Tripper]

Championship course to me = not very busy. No waiting. Built for the 1%, and won't receive a ton of play.

There are plenty of people calling Diavolo a "championship" level course but it is almost always busy.

 

[Tripper]

Practical purposes (locally anyway) it's length.
Blue Valley Championship Course 11,000ft
Cedar Ridge 4,800ft

I played Blue Valley when I visited KC just over a year ago. I would not consider it a champ level course. The elevation is fun but it inflates a players ability. For example, I can maybe throw 340-350 on perfect pull. Due to wind and elevation I parked 2 holes that were just over 500' that day. The uphill holes torn me down but a top level pro would not have the difficulty I had. The course was much too open to challenge a top pro IMO.

And then there was garbage literally everywhere. Not beer cans and cigarette butts. I am talking about bags of garbage dumped on the park road and household garbage blowing around on the course.

 

[seedlings]

I played Blue Valley when I visited KC just over a year ago. I would not consider it a champ level course. The elevation is fun but it inflates a players ability. For example, I can maybe throw 340-350 on perfect pull. Due to wind and elevation I parked 2 holes that were just over 500' that day. The uphill holes torn me down but a top level pro would not have the difficulty I had. The course was much too open to challenge a top pro IMO.

And then there was garbage literally everywhere. Not beer cans and cigarette butts. I am talking about bags of garbage dumped on the park road and household garbage blowing around on the course.

Yes. To all that. A 'championship' disc golf course is … just another course.

I'm going to play Idlewild this coming week. Not gon lie - probably not counting OB strokes, and playing all but water casual. I am a bad person.

 

[sisyphus]

...I'm going to play Idlewild this coming week. Not gon lie - probably not counting OB strokes, and playing all but water casual. I am a bad person.

nope ..."Idle ...mild" is one of the best days of disc golf you can have!

I live in the area, and have enjoyed every round I've ever played there (casual, league and tourney). It's just one of the best designed courses for all skill levels ...provided you don't have an easily bruised ego.

Have fun!

 

[GMcAtee]

There are plenty of people calling Diavolo a "championship" level course but it is almost always busy.

The last time I played Idlewild, it was extremely packed with casuals. That is so different than pre-DGPT. Really long round with a packed Idlewild.

 

[Jukeshoe]

I think some folks around Lancaster PA beat you to it . . .

Mini Disc Golf Federation - Courses (clicky)

What the hell have I been doing with my life?!

*logs off DGCR forever*

*rides Harley off into the sunset*

 

[coupe]

There are plenty of people calling Diavolo a "championship" level course

They're wrong.

 

[Eman]

To me, a championship Course is any well-maintained course where the par is 1010+ on a clear day from the tips. I want to say 1020, but the list of courses is to small.

 

[Shallows]

To me, a championship Course is any well-maintained course where the par is 1010+ on a clear day from the tips. I want to say 1020, but the list of courses is to small.

7 DGPT courses from the past year rated par as 1010+:

Fox Run: 1010
Maple Hill: 1011
The Fort: 1011
Winthrop: 1013
OTB Open: 1018
Emporia Country Club: 1029 (Par on the windy day rated 1046 and on the calmer day rated 1012)
Northwod Black: 1029
Jones Supreme: 1030

PDGA says it's highest level of course, a Gold course, is anything that rates par at least 970.

 

[Cgkdisc]

A 5-disc level Championship course doesn't have to be long, doesn't need a high SSA, but it should have terrain variety, quality equipment, "proven" challenging design/layouts for multiple skill levels, tournament infrastructure and additional amenities. And shouldn't it be permanent or at least able to be tricked out for championship events? Exclusively gold level courses, suitable for championships, are theoretically appropriate for just three divisions, MPO, MA1 & MP40 with the contending players at or above 970 ratings. Perhaps these should be considered Elite Championship layouts?

The PDGA also oversees World Championships for 12 Junior divisions, around 30 other Master aged divisions plus FPO and FA1 where Blue level (and below) championship courses are more appropriate challenges for contenders. With disc golf being a true lifetime sport, most players, almost exclusively male to date, only have a small chance to become gold level contenders for up to 15-20 years of a 60-year career. Note that Pete May and Peter Shive were just inducted into the disc golf Hall of Fame, the first members who didn't even start competing in disc golf until after age 50. Blue level and below are where championship courses should be developed, and many have been. They still need the championship qualities noted above, just not the crazy length being showcased on DGN.