Clearing the lie

[flowinowen]

This question is in relation to objects in front of the lie. I understand the ruling of loose objects behind, but is there a ruling for in front? An example - during a previous tournament, I found my lie among lots of loose rock debris. There were larger rocks right in my follow through step. Are these OK to move assuming theres a safety concern with them?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Typically, the items in front of your lie that can be moved have to partly be behind your lie interfering with your stance like a branch that is in your lie with part of it in front. Also other players and their equipment can be moved. If safety is your concern, you can always use the Optional Relief rule and move back on the line of play but it also costs a 1-throw penalty.

 

[flowinowen]

Cool, Thanks!

 

[bradharris]

803.01 B

Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

The key piece here is bolded. Obstacles can only be moved if they are on or behind your lie. Obstacles that are entirely in front of your lie cannot be moved. Safety concerns can be addressed by modifying your throw to use more of a stand-and-deliver approach.

 

[IHearChains]

You get about 2 disc widths to work with, without penalty. First, you have the choice to mark or not. That's one disc width. Then your legal stance allows you about one more disc width behind the lie. The optional relief penalty might not be needed if you take full advantage of your two disc leeway.

 

[ToddL]

Safety concerns can be addressed by modifying your throw to use more of a stand-and-deliver approach.

Yup.
You are guaranteed a safe stance (well, mostly). You are not guaranteed a safe follow through. If your jump putt might land in a dangerous area, I'd suggest not jump putting.

 

[Consult20]

803.01 B

Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

The key piece here is bolded. Obstacles can only be moved if they are on or behind your lie. Obstacles that are entirely in front of your lie cannot be moved. Safety concerns can be addressed by modifying your throw to use more of a stand-and-deliver approach.

So based on the 5 meter option above, for example: Say your disc lands in a large pile of branches/logs, you are allowed to relocate your lie up to 5 meters behind this mess even if the mess only extends say 3 meters behind your original lie -- without the 1 stroke penalty? So you effectively have 2 meters behind the mess to pick your optimal lie? Or does the lie need to be marked directly behind the mess, as close as practical?

This situation actually happens fairly often on a new local course recently opened for play.

 

[bradharris]

So based on the 5 meter option above, for example: Say your disc lands in a large pile of branches/logs, you are allowed to relocate your lie up to 5 meters behind this mess even if the mess only extends say 3 meters behind your original lie -- without the 1 stroke penalty? So you effectively have 2 meters behind the mess to pick your optimal lie? Or does the lie need to be marked directly behind the mess, as close as practical?

This situation actually happens fairly often on a new local course recently opened for play.

The key words there are "the nearest lie." So it's not a blanket 5 meter allowance to be used at will. You can only use as much of that 5 meters as is needed to get behind the obstacle. If you need more than 5 meters, the penalty stroke applies.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The key words there are "the nearest lie." So it's not a blanket 5 meter allowance to be used at will. You can only use as much of that 5 meters as is needed to get behind the obstacle. If you need more than 5 meters, the penalty stroke applies.

...unless the TD indicates free extended relief is allowed.

 

[Consult20]

The key words there are "the nearest lie." So it's not a blanket 5 meter allowance to be used at will. You can only use as much of that 5 meters as is needed to get behind the obstacle. If you need more than 5 meters, the penalty stroke applies.

...unless the TD indicates free extended relief is allowed.

Ahhh, ok yes it's clear now, thanks for the quick clarification. I'm going to start looking at this option right away for dicey stance situations.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Extended relief is something that TDs should look for when there are perhaps marshes or really wet spots due to rain where there you could land and more than 5 meters along the line of play isn't enough to get out of it.

 

[Steve West]

...unless the TD indicates free extended relief is allowed.

This may give you more than 5 meters, but you still only get as much as you need, not more.

 

[Consult20]

We were playing a casual round last night and this came up, disc landed on a pile of branches just off the fairway with no way to take a balanced stance. Lie was marked about 6' behind the thrown disc in line with the basket, at the closest point where standing on branches would allow actually contacting the ground (only one layer of branches). Sound like it was played properly?

 

[Lazerface]

You get about 2 disc widths to work with, without penalty. First, you have the choice to mark or not. That's one disc width. Then your legal stance allows you about one more disc width behind the lie. The optional relief penalty might not be needed if you take full advantage of your two disc leeway.

I'm assuming "on" is defined by the back edge of your mini or disc? Given that is where you plant your foot. In other words, if the disc comes to rest an inch behind a dead log, an you mark it with a mini and said mini is halfway under or leaning on the log - in this scenario does the log stay? I would assume so.

Also, I remember watching a Dynamic Discs rules video that mentions on or behind but also mentions "in your throwing motion". So, if you have a dead tree in front of you lie, but it has some branches the extend behind your lie - do those branches need to impede your actual throwing motion for you to move the dead tree? Let's say you extend your arms out horizontally and those branches are out of reach - does it stay? Do the rules address this scenario? 803.1 B referenced here does not. If it is all connected and a branch extends behind your lie 5 feet away from your mark it seems like an argument could be made that you can move it if indeed this quote of 803.1 B is the rule in its entirety. What if a log is very close to your lie and is 8 feet long and eventually crosses the perpendicular line of play that your mini/disc creates - basically same situation as the branches? The part of the log directly in front of your stance does not impede the lie.

The name of the rule is "Casual Obstacles to a Stance" Is "Stance" defined elsewhere in the rulebook?

 

[bradharris]

I'm assuming "on" is defined by the back edge of your mini or disc? Given that is where you plant your foot. In other words, if the disc comes to rest an inch behind a dead log, an you mark it with a mini and said mini is halfway under or leaning on the log - in this scenario does the log stay? I would assume so.

Also, I remember watching a Dynamic Discs rules video that mentions on or behind but also mentions "in your throwing motion". So, if you have a dead tree in front of you lie, but it has some branches the extend behind your lie - do those branches need to impede your actual throwing motion for you to move the dead tree? Let's say you extend your arms out horizontally and those branches are out of reach - does it stay? Do the rules address this scenario? 803.1 B referenced here does not. If it is all connected and a branch extends behind your lie 5 feet away from your mark it seems like an argument could be made that you can move it if indeed this quote of 803.1 B is the rule in its entirety. What if a log is very close to your lie and is 8 feet long and eventually crosses the perpendicular line of play that your mini/disc creates - basically same situation as the branches? The part of the log directly in front of your stance does not impede the lie.

The name of the rule is "Casual Obstacles to a Stance" Is "Stance" defined elsewhere in the rulebook?

Whatever DD told you is wrong.

803.01 A - Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described below, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, or picnic tables), which is considered to be part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play.

So if it's not an obstacle to the stance as described in B, it cannot be moved.

To expand on that, 802.04 A is even more explicit on this:

A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

 

[Steve West]

...Also, I remember watching a Dynamic Discs rules video that mentions on or behind but also mentions "in your throwing motion".

You don't get relief for your throwing motion. The first time I watched that DD video I thought he incorrectly said that you did. Watch it again and you'll see he just says something like "Oh, look I happen to have enough room for a throwing motion" as a side comment. Not as a part of what you can do to take relief.

 

[Lazerface]

Whatever DD told you is wrong.

803.01 A - Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described below, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, or picnic tables), which is considered to be part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play.

So if it's not an obstacle to the stance as described in B, it cannot be moved.

To expand on that, 802.04 A is even more explicit on this:

A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

Thanks! It was a while ago when I watched DD rules video from Dixon and it looks like I took his comments out of context.