Course Modification Possibilities, Plantation Ruins

[tom12003]

Opinions/comments welcomed.

Charlotte Disc Golf Club built a new course (Plantation Ruins at Winget Park, http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=5036) that opened January 2012; of course it is heavily wooded/technical. Sam Nicholson is the designer, I serve as the chief grunt (currently the course director), and Stan McDaniel was our constant critic. The course was designed for the Amateur portion of the 2012 Worlds, but we tried to design options to make it a bear by using alternate tees/pin positions.

After about 900 rounds at the MA1 level (a Major—Worlds; an A-Tier and a B-Tier) we have statistically sound hole-by-hole scoring numbers. MA1 Worlds averaged about 55.85 (par 57). The SSA came in around 49.5; we think the SSA can be expanded to a 55+ or so.

What makes sense to other designers (target still the MA1 audience). Input always welcomed.

Hole 1 (currently 250', averaging 2.86); mapped out a new tee at about 320' requiring a RHBH with a slight anhyzer with a hyzer fade; I think it would make the hole about a 3.1—probably worth it.

Hole 2 (currently 244', averaging 3.08; very slight RHBH anhyzer with a slight hyzer fade); a new tee could add another 40' (with minimal effort) with a little more difficult angle, still a par 3--worth the effort?

Hole 3 (currently 302', averaging 2.83). Has either a RHBH hyzer or anhyzer path (center path has cedars in the way). Enough room to add a tee to make it 490' (a par 4); I'm thinking of making it about 385' and keeping it as a par 3 (between the center cedars and the left woods)--my choice.

Hole 4 (currently 234', averaging 2.81). Requires a RHBH anhyzer. Longer tee would make this about 290-300' and tighter but probably worth it while keeping it a par 3.

Hole 5 (currently 234', averaging 2.63, easiest hole). Straight path; error a little, still able to recover. Only option is to increase tee by 50' or so with a slightly uncomfortable angle—still an easy 3. Worth the effort? Build an elevated pin?

Hole 6 (currently 226', averaging 2.77). Straight with a little RHBH turn over. Could extend a tee by 50' to over 300'; current first 60' is very tight; if extending the tee by over 150+' would probably make the hole a par 4. Possible lengthening the tee by about 50-70' or so while keeping it a par 3--my choice. Alternatively, building an elevated pin.

Hole 7 (currently 265', averaging 3.089). RHBH slight turnover. Avoiding the "TOM" tree (me) at about 125' should result in a 3. Not many options unless we decide to switch things up and go from #6 tee to 7's basket ( a par 4). Sam wants to do this and carve out a new #7 but he needs to find a different slave than me!

Hole 8 (currently 380', a par 4 and averaging that). Tight straight 200' to a 90 degree right turn, left side after the turn has a dry creek bed (in play but the opposite side of the creek bed is OB—park boundary); pin is on a narrow peninsula with dry creek beds on both sides and behind (OB circles the pin by 10 m across the creek beds). Few options other than tightening OB. Expansion unrealistic.

Hole 9 (currently 318', par 4 averaging 4.021) short but deceptive horseshoe shape (initially blind uphill then downhill) with a drop off behind the pin; few expansion options and probably not needed.

Hole 10 (currently 223', averaging 3.053). Straight downhill (blind with a 22' drop from tee to pin and then continues downhill for 90' with another 30' drop). Could easily push a tee back another 100-150'; probably not change most scoring; those that overthrow are usually screwed.

Hole 11 (currently 226', averaging 3.06). Extreme right dogleg at about 160'—RHBH anhyzer. Easily push the pin back by 100-200' (can still reach for a 3 with a decent 1st shot). Only reason to extend pin by more than 100' is masochism.

Hole 12 (currently 371', averaging 3.915, par 4). First 200' is a RHBH hyzer (overcook the hyzer you'll find heavy tree trouble) then straightens but has a few frustrating trees. Could push the pin back another 100 or so feet, which would probably raise the hole average to about a 4.2-4.3—my choice.

Hole 13 (currently 247', averaging 3.47, par 3; tight and uphill; hardest hole on course, but it has been aced, my definition of a par 3). Could easily push a tee back another 150+'; hole would probably average around a 4.4; worth the effort as it would remain a "separator" hole?

Hole 14 (currently 311', averaging 3.025, par 3). Semi-open hole (RHBH anhyzer very open, RHBH hyzer tight). Could push pin back by 200-250' making the hole a par 4 with optimal location being more RHBH anhyzer (going straight back another 200-250' gets into an area with poor drainage). Any reason to make a change?

Hole 15 (currently the shortest at 198', averaging 2.765). Straight narrow (8-9' wide) downhill shot with a dogwood 30' directly in front of the pin. Almost no expansion options other than building an elevated pin (go for the ace and sail 70+ beyond).

Hole 16 (currently 202', averaging 2.715). Hyzer uphill with many big pines to avoid. Could extend the tee by 40-50' (with even tighter trees) and raise the scoring average near 3. Needs further thought.

Hole 17 (currently 282', averaging 2.851). Slightly downhill open straight shot entering a heavily wooded area at about 230'. Could move the tee 25' or so to the right (making it a semi-blind shot), but the course does not need another RHBH anhyzer; worth the effort?

Hole 18 (currently 243', averaging 2.907). Straight tight shot for 210' with a RHBH anhyzer finish, pin positioned with 35' roll away possibilities. Options are to play to the practice basket 200' further as a par 4 (this would definitely be a "tweener") or to plant another sleeve/basket at about 300' further (challenging par 4).

Comments welcomed

 

[Cgkdisc]

The averages aren't fully meaningful until shifted to a 950 blue level equivalent AND the adjusted hole score percentage distribution reviewed. How close was the average rating to 950 of the players who produced your averages?

 

[grodney]

Opinions/comments welcomed.

Comments welcomed

Leave it as-is. Use your time, money, and energy for upkeep/maintenance. And/Or on other courses.

 

[tom12003]

The averages aren't fully meaningful until shifted to a 950 blue level equivalent AND the adjusted hole score percentage distribution reviewed. How close was the average rating to 950 of the players who produced your averages?

Average player rating (MA1 Worlds, where stats come from) was 930.

 

[1978]

Hole 1 (currently 250', averaging 2.86); mapped out a new tee at about 320' requiring a RHBH with a slight anhyzer with a hyzer fade; I think it would make the hole about a 3.1—probably worth it.
-OK-
Hole 2 (currently 244', averaging 3.08; very slight RHBH anhyzer with a slight hyzer fade); a new tee could add another 40' (with minimal effort) with a little more difficult angle, still a par 3--worth the effort?
-Not worth the effort. 1&2 already border each other most of the fairway, in coming years the buffer of woods will be non existent from traffic and brush loss/thinning. If anything, on this hole we should be investigating a tee way off to the left (over or next to the creek) have a safer #2's tee and to protect anyone in the fairway of 1 &2. a longer tee will just add to this safety and design error.

Hole 3 (currently 302', averaging 2.83). Has either a RHBH hyzer or anhyzer path (center path has cedars in the way). Enough room to add a tee to make it 490' (a par 4); I'm thinking of making it about 385' and keeping it as a par 3 (between the center cedars and the left woods)--my choice.
-OK its just a field

Hole 4 (currently 234', averaging 2.81). Requires a RHBH anhyzer. Longer tee would make this about 290-300' and tighter but probably worth it while keeping it a par 3.
-A longer tee would be ok here and an odd shot...on top of the hill? Might be neat.


Hole 5 (currently 234', averaging 2.63, easiest hole). Straight path; error a little, still able to recover. Only option is to increase tee by 50' or so with a slightly uncomfortable angle—still an easy 3. Worth the effort? Build an elevated pin?

-Maybe if you throw from the walking path area. Raised pin is interesting...

Hole 6 (currently 226', averaging 2.77). Straight with a little RHBH turn over. Could extend a tee by 50' to over 300'; current first 60' is very tight; if extending the tee by over 150+' would probably make the hole a par 4. Possible lengthening the tee by about 50-70' or so while keeping it a par 3--my choice. Alternatively, building an elevated pin.

Be wary of overuse of raised pins, sometimes it is ok to have easy holes.

Hole 7 (currently 265', averaging 3.089). RHBH slight turnover. Avoiding the "TOM" tree (me) at about 125' should result in a 3. Not many options unless we decide to switch things up and go from #6 tee to 7's basket ( a par 4). Sam wants to do this and carve out a new #7 but he needs to find a different slave than me!

Dont change this hole. It is very difficult and adds challenge. It would be a mistake in my opionion to mess with this one.

Hole 8 (currently 380', a par 4 and averaging that). Tight straight 200' to a 90 degree right turn, left side after the turn has a dry creek bed (in play but the opposite side of the creek bed is OB—park boundary); pin is on a narrow peninsula with dry creek beds on both sides and behind (OB circles the pin by 10 m across the creek beds). Few options other than tightening OB. Expansion unrealistic.

Dont change

Hole 9 (currently 318', par 4 averaging 4.021) short but deceptive horseshoe shape (initially blind uphill then downhill) with a drop off behind the pin; few expansion options and probably not needed.

Dont change

Hole 10 (currently 223', averaging 3.053). Straight downhill (blind with a 22' drop from tee to pin and then continues downhill for 90' with another 30' drop). Could easily push a tee back another 100-150'; probably not change most scoring; those that overthrow are usually screwed.

No need to change be what ever on this one.

Hole 11 (currently 226', averaging 3.06). Extreme right dogleg at about 160'—RHBH anhyzer. Easily push the pin back by 100-200' (can still reach for a 3 with a decent 1st shot). Only reason to extend pin by more than 100' is masochism.

Very difficult 2, dont mess with anything. Why would you move the pin away from the cool rocks. Very few get past them anyway. Mistake to change this hole.

Hole 12 (currently 371', averaging 3.915, par 4). First 200' is a RHBH hyzer (overcook the hyzer you'll find heavy tree trouble) then straightens but has a few frustrating trees. Could push the pin back another 100 or so feet, which would probably raise the hole average to about a 4.2-4.3—my choice.

No need to change this hole.


Hole 13 (currently 247', averaging 3.47, par 3; tight and uphill; hardest hole on course, but it has been aced, my definition of a par 3). Could easily push a tee back another 150+'; hole would probably average around a 4.4; worth the effort as it would remain a "separator" hole?

Hole 13 is perfect, I wouldnt ever play the longer hole. Its right there yet so hard to birdie, beautiful hole.

Hole 14 (currently 311', averaging 3.025, par 3). Semi-open hole (RHBH anhyzer very open, RHBH hyzer tight). Could push pin back by 200-250' making the hole a par 4 with optimal location being more RHBH anhyzer (going straight back another 200-250' gets into an area with poor drainage). Any reason to make a change?

-No except to add distance.

Hole 15 (currently the shortest at 198', averaging 2.765). Straight narrow (8-9' wide) downhill shot with a dogwood 30' directly in front of the pin. Almost no expansion options other than building an elevated pin (go for the ace and sail 70+ beyond).


Maybe the elevated pin and clear ALL woods behind the basket so long shots go forever.

Hole 16 (currently 202', averaging 2.715). Hyzer uphill with many big pines to avoid. Could extend the tee by 40-50' (with even tighter trees) and raise the scoring average near 3. Needs further thought.

Great hole, dont change

Hole 17 (currently 282', averaging 2.851). Slightly downhill open straight shot entering a heavily wooded area at about 230'. Could move the tee 25' or so to the right (making it a semi-blind shot), but the course does not need another RHBH anhyzer; worth the effort?

-NO

Hole 18 (currently 243', averaging 2.907). Straight tight shot for 210' with a RHBH anhyzer finish, pin positioned with 35' roll away possibilities. Options are to play to the practice basket 200' further as a par 4 (this would definitely be a "tweener") or to plant another sleeve/basket at about 300' further (challenging par 4).

Sure play to the practice basket, you dont have to change anything. Leave the existing location alone it is a great hole.

Comments welcomed.


Just be careful that you make good golf holes...not just gimicks to increase a scoring average. We have 14.5 courses in Charlotte. I agree with grodney ... why waste a whole bunch of time fiddling with 18 holes when Renny is falling apart. WE have difficult holes and courses, and we have courses that are in need. (the dirt mound at sugaw). To spend money for 14 or so new teepads seems wasteful...If you made 3-4 key changes I think that is reasonable, going full facelift is probably unnecessary when we have so much else to do.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My suggestion would be to rank everyone in your stats by rating from top to bottom. Then drop out as many of the lowest rated players from the bottom up until the remaining players average 950. From this remaining pool of blue level players averaging 950, see what your hole averages look like and especially the percentage distribution of 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s on each hole. That will give you great blue level baseline stats to see if tweaks might be useful.

 

[grodney]

I agree with grodney ... why waste a whole bunch of time fiddling with 18 holes when Renny is falling apart. WE have difficult holes and courses, and we have courses that are in need. (the dirt mound at sugaw). To spend money for 14 or so new teepads seems wasteful...If you made 3-4 key changes I think that is reasonable, going full facelift is probably unnecessary when we have so much else to do.

The current course is awesome and is suitable for a wide range of players -- from fairly easy for MA1 players, to very challenging for newbies. Adding new tees and pins only benefits a VERY narrow audience (small number of players). Not every course needs to be a tournament course.

p.s. Volunteers can ALWAYS do whatever they want with the time they are giving. I'm just giving my opinion, which was welcomed.

 

[1978]

It will be up to the club to prioritize capital expenses, of course, any labor is appreciated and spend it where you want to.

 

[Steve West]

What strikes me is the lack of variety of hole lengths. Almost every hole is within 3% of the length of another hole. So, when looking at the scoring distributions for a group of players that average 950 (as Chuck suggested) I would be looking for opportunities for longer (or even shorter) holes. Perhaps there is a connecting pair that both need adjustment where shifting the basket to have a longer and a shorter hole would help.

 

[1978]

With respect to your experience in mind....

Hole lengths can be similar but shape and obstacles totally change the hole. A 300' straight field throw is a pro rhyno for me. As the hole bends more and more left (for example) I have to change disc selection, buzzz, Eagle, Firebird, Destroyer. Elevation effects it too. You can have an 18 hole course of all 300' hole and force most players to use their entire bag. I wouldnt worry too much about the hole length. In my opinion how the hole / course plays is way more important than some arbitrary look at numbers on a score card. I've found that courses that are built with that final footage in mind tend to fall short in some area, fairness, fun, variety. I would agree with Steve if the course was an open park course or something with the same shot over and over again. I don't feel (even though winget favors lefties) that you use the same disc on every hole.

 

[tom12003]

The current course is awesome and is suitable for a wide range of players -- from fairly easy for MA1 players, to very challenging for newbies. Adding new tees and pins only benefits a VERY narrow audience (small number of players). Not every course needs to be a tournament course.

I'm more inclined to add longer tees rather than new pin positions to give newbies whats there while adding a higher degree of difficulty for the better players by using the longer tees. Because of this, if any longer pin sleeves go in, they would primarily be used for tournaments. The more I think about it a few elevated (2-3') pins might help with some of the deuce or die holes.

 

[ERicJ]

Hole 7 (currently 265', averaging 3.089). RHBH slight turnover. Avoiding the "TOM" tree (me) at about 125' should result in a 3. Not many options unless we decide to switch things up and go from #6 tee to 7's basket ( a par 4). Sam wants to do this and carve out a new #7 but he needs to find a different slave than me!
[...]
Comments welcomed

Overall I liked the course when I played at 2012 Worlds, however this hole was one of my least favorites on the MA1 slate. In general I thought the courses were tough but fair. This hole was one of those exceptions. IMO, avoiding the tree at 125' is more a matter of luck than skill. Two shots thrown down the middle of the fairway have drastically different results when one lucky one misses the tree and one unlucky one hits the tree. If a redesigned #6/7 removes this luck tree then I'd be in favor of that change.

As others have said the rest of the changes seem rather significant for not a lot of gain.

Thank you for your efforts leading up to 2012 Worlds. I though the courses were in great shape. :clap:

 

[tom12003]

Overall I liked the course when I played at 2012 Worlds, however this hole (#7)was one of my least favorites on the MA1 slate. In general I thought the courses were tough but fair. This hole was one of those exceptions. IMO, avoiding the tree at 125' is more a matter of luck than skill. Two shots thrown down the middle of the fairway have drastically different results when one lucky one misses the tree and one unlucky one hits the tree. If a redesigned #6/7 removes this luck tree then I'd be in favor of that change.
:clap:

That tree is "named" the Tom tree (after me) because I hit it half the time for the first 5 months. I've changed the way I throw #7 (RHFH with a slight anhyzer with an overstable disc--a Z-Avenger), often scaring the basket with my upshot but usually getting my 3. That hole is uncomfortable for many because the angles and turns are opposite of what most are used to.

 

[BrotherDave]

Hole 3 I think could be spiced up a bit by angling the tee, making the placement around those trees a bit trickier to manage. Right now you can pretty much go brain dead and just huk something more or less straight at it and you've got a good chance of landing well. If you turned the hole into a slight dogleg left/right, you'd have to think about the shot a bit more.

Hole 9 irks me but I don't know how I'd change it. Maybe clear out the landing area a bit and change it to a par 3.

I agree hole 13 is perfect as is. Instead of a longer tee, I'd much rather see the basket pushed back and made into a 4.

Hole 14 is kind of a blah hole. You could add distance but what would be nice for the locals would be a couple of rotating pin placements.

Hole 16, I'm trying to remember, could you put in a longer tee that would be elevated enough to make it almost a valley shot? Especially with a tight gap. Pretty good hole as is.

Hole 17 is cool.

That's all I can think of, keep up the great work Tom!

 

[sloppydisc]

In my observations I have noticed that good courses get built, and then get changed and tweaked until they are no longer good courses. Kind of too much of a good thing. Best to go slow, and make baby steps. Too many pads, baskets, foot paths and elevated baskets can ruin what you have already built. Not every course has to be a Gold Rated beat down. If you really feel the need to do more work, go build another course.

 

[tom12003]

Hole 3 I think could be spiced up a bit by angling the tee, making the placement around those trees a bit trickier to manage. Right now you can pretty much go brain dead and just huk something more or less straight at it and you've got a good chance of landing well. If you turned the hole into a slight dogleg left/right, you'd have to think about the shot a bit more.

I'm thinking of marking a new pad for #3, about 80' longer and to the left of the current pad (fairway is between the middle cedars and the left hand "woods"), keeping it a par 3. Alternatively making it about 460', but it would be an easy 4 if not a tweener. Nothing is going to permanently happen until 4-6 months of test play/feedback.

 

[BrotherDave]

I'm thinking of marking a new pad for #3, about 80' longer and to the left of the current pad (fairway is between the middle cedars and the left hand "woods"), keeping it a par 3. Alternatively making it about 460', but it would be an easy 4 if not a tweener. Nothing is going to permanently happen until 4-6 months of test play/feedback.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

 

[DavidSauls]

In my observations I have noticed that good courses get built, and then get changed and tweaked until they are no longer good courses.

Sometimes....but I've noticed others that improved with the tweaks.

 

[1978]

"tweaks"

 

[steven2361]

I like most of the changes except the idea on 17 and the par 4 options. I don't think this course needs more short par 4s.