Courtesy to female players in 2017 - Can it exist?

[Noill]

it perplexes me everyday that people can't just be cool with each other...

I see a woman on the course and I'm happy she's there... I see a guy in a business suit and sneakers on and I'm happy he's there... I see a bunch of yahoos on the course and I'm happy they are there...

I'm always happy to see people anywhere always...

well...

unless you take too long on the teepad and I have to wait more than 10 seconds... :|

 

[Reniger]

Get over it.

Quit being sexist yourself.

Dealt with all kinds of weird crap, not a lot of gender-based crap.

Everybody deals with weird crap. Is this a pissing contest about whose crap is worse? When I say pissing contest do you cringe because that implies the word penis? We probably couldn't hang out. Uh oh, I did it again. Have fun on the DG course!

If you're dead-set on being insular, unapproachable, or otherwise ivory-towered, get a group & play with them. Psychology.

FWIW, I play solo a lot and wouldn't have said boo to you whether you're great, terrible, hot, ugly...unless you were standing on the fairway chillin'. Then I would've walked up, said "hi, I'm playing this hole and if you could move for a sec - say beyond this tree or further if that makes you feel more comfortable - I'll throw this here disc through and be gone in a moment". Take care!

:thmbdown: You're a scum bag.

Nailed it. Always fun to blame someone else for your own poor behavior. "I'm an ass, so you just have to deal with it." Sad to see.

 

[Noill]

:thmbdown: You're a scum bag.

^courtesy violation... not that you're wrong, I mean that post was not well said at all... the both of you are riding the line pretty tight as goes DGCR decorum...

*raises yellow card and points at jedi and silly...*

 

[HERB brooks]

This ones gonna end up in the landfill before long

 

[Noill]

I want this type of conversation to be had...

Word to the wise... keep it within the decorum that DGCR expects of its members...

Otherwise, I'm cracking down hard from here on out.

 

[dorseymatt]

To the OP--thank you for posting this. I just want to say I hear you, and I'm sorry this is the way things are (currently).
I really appreciate what mullethead and a couple others said. And I'm really saddened by what a couple others said.
I think biggest shift can come from the large majority of well-meaning guys in this thread who have offered plenty of advice to the OP. I wonder what advice you could give yourselves and your friends to make your course a more comfortable place for women.
If we leave it on the women to "deal with it" or grow thicker skins, or whatever most of the well-meaning men have suggested, where does that get us? I think that advice ignores the real, and I'm guessing exceedingly common, experience of a woman trying to play this sport. Let's take it seriously. Let's think about what we, as men, can do to help this situation, rather than offering women advice on what they can do to get through the situation.

 

[HERB brooks]

While it's a nice idea to "be the change you want to see in the word" the man who said that was assassinated by people who want to keep things as they are. There is a sizable percentage of people who aren't work the dirt they tread upon. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

If some guy is out of line with a woman, I'll certainly say something. What I won't do is jump down a guy's throat for saying sweetheart, I'm not a social justice warrior.

 

[sillybizz]

To the OP--thank you for posting this. I just want to say I hear you, and I'm sorry this is the way things are (currently).
I really appreciate what mullethead and a couple others said. And I'm really saddened by what a couple others said.
I think biggest shift can come from the large majority of well-meaning guys in this thread who have offered plenty of advice to the OP. I wonder what advice you could give yourselves and your friends to make your course a more comfortable place for women.
If we leave it on the women to "deal with it" or grow thicker skins, or whatever most of the well-meaning men have suggested, where does that get us? I think that advice ignores the real, and I'm guessing exceedingly common, experience of a woman trying to play this sport. Let's take it seriously. Let's think about what we, as men, can do to help this situation, rather than offering women advice on what they can do to get through the situation.

:thmbup: :clap:

I'm not really sure if there is one answer or many, probably many. Men need to stop and destroy any activity that is being disrespectful, all of us at once jump in. Like what we now do to hijackers after 9/11, gang rush em'. Of course in this case it's a gang rush of words, hopefully nothing is going on so terrible that we need that kind of intervention, though I digress. If you want guys to think about this in a different light ask them what they would think if that was their girlfriend, daughter, mother, sister, etc. that was being treated that way and ask them what their response would have been had they been there and caught that guy in the act. I guarantee the answer ranges but still isn't too pretty overall yet these men act in the very same way to other men's girlfriends, daughters, etc. Heck maybe we need to be more selective on who we introduce to the sport.

 

[dorseymatt]

HERB, if you're playing with people who you would be afraid of respectfully addressing the "sweetheart" comment with, I wonder how women feel hearing it from people who they don't know. You don't have to jump down peoples' throats with this stuff. You can have tact. I've failed to address a friend "sweethearting" someone in the past on the course, but I think today I would handle it differently.

 

[Noill]

While it's a nice idea to "be the change you want to see in the word" the man who said that was assassinated by people who want to keep things as they are. There is a sizable percentage of people who aren't work the dirt they tread upon. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If some guy is out of line with a woman, I'll certainly say something. What I won't do is jump down a guy's throat for saying sweetheart, I'm not a social justice warrior.

Man you hit the nail on the head... I'll never understand those that want to slow down change and progress. I crave change everyday... I simply can't stand still and always look for the things that show promise and remind me how amazing people can be.

Even if I see way more examples of how many people don't want anything new or different... I'll never give up on my compassion and extreme curiosity... I'll also never give up on finding what is not quite right within me and will strive to evolve that constantly.

cliche but true... be awesome everyday

 

[dorseymatt]

Also, fellow dudes, maybe it is on us to ask women how they want us to treat them while on the dg course.
Women disc golfers--what would you like us to do? What would you like us to NOT do?

 

[Noill]

HERB, if you're playing with people who you would be afraid of respectfully addressing the "sweetheart" comment with, I wonder how women feel hearing it from people who they don't know. You don't have to jump down peoples' throats with this stuff. You can have tact. I've failed to address a friend "sweethearting" someone in the past on the course, but I think today I would handle it differently.

I'm not so sure the "sweetheart" comment is such a terrible thing... I think it matters what the intent is... I can't blame a guy for trying to impress a lady they are attracted to...

however, if it is intended as a demeaning comment then yeah, that is not cool at all...

I've been "sweethearted" by women... I've also been treated as an object by women... I didn't mind the first but didn't like the second... I can see a woman being jaded over the comment altogether as my experience likely pales in comparison to hers.

 

[Noill]

... and all of a sudden Queen came up in my playlist... heh

thanks OP for this thread, it is obviously something DG'ers need to talk about

 

[HERB brooks]

If you're playing with people who you would be afraid of respectfully addressing the "sweetheart" comment with, I wonder how women feel hearing it from people who they don't know. You don't have to jump down peoples' throats with this stuff. You can have tact. I've failed to address a friend "sweethearting" someone in the past on the course, but I think today I would handle it differently.

I didn't arcticulate that point well. I don't associate with guys that say/do that kind of thing. All I know is if someone were to lecture me as a stranger because I offended them I'd tell em to stick it where the sun don't shine... That's why I wouldn't do that to a stranger. With that said if I heard some heavy breathing type muttering how sexy the OP was I would ask if he was bothering her and try to get the creep to stop.

 

[bradharris]

The OP sounds like an introvert who hates to be the focus of anyone's attention, especially males. She prefers to go about her daily life with relative anonymity. I can definitely sympathize, I'm the same way sometimes.

Unfortunately, any woman will draw a great deal of extra attention on the disc golf course simply because of her gender. While most of that attention will be silent and innocent, there will always be a few men who take it a step too far. This is simply human nature, and the only real way to avoid it is complete seclusion. The real problem is not that men are rude to women in disc golf, it's that there are so few woman in the sport, that the ones that do play get more attention than they want. The only way to solve this problem is to increase the ratio so that women on the course is the norm rather than the exception.

Unfortunately, that's going to be a long, slow process. So to answer the original question, no, this is not something that's going to change in 2017.

My best advice to the OP is to accept that she's going to draw some unwanted attention, and do her best to block out the few bad apples and not let it effect her enjoyment of the game. I know that's not super helpful, but the alternative is to only play when no one else wants to, and that seems like an even worse solution.

 

[dorseymatt]

I'm not so sure the "sweetheart" comment is such a terrible thing... I think it matters what the intent is... I can't blame a guy for trying to impress a lady they are attracted to...

however, if it is intended as a demeaning comment then yeah, that is not cool at all...

I've been "sweethearted" by women... I've also been treated as an object by women... I didn't mind the first but didn't like the second... I can see a woman being jaded over the comment altogether as my experience likely pales in comparison to hers.

The actual intent with the sweetheart thing is largely irrelevant when we are talking about how it makes actual women disc golfers feel when people on the course call them sweetheart. It sounds like on some level you do understand that.
I guess what I'm saying is that just meaning well and doing what we are doing isn't working. Many women don't feel comfortable on the course. It's on us to strategically address that.

 

[dorseymatt]

I didn't arcticulate that point well. I don't associate with guys that say/do that kind of thing. All I know is if someone were to lecture me as a stranger because I offended them I'd tell em to stick it where the sun don't shine... That's why I wouldn't do that to a stranger. With that said if I heard some heavy breathing type muttering how sexy the OP was I would ask if he was bothering her and try to get the creep to stop.

I hear you, and thanks for clarifying. Again, though--if addressing the sweetheart comment with a stranger is something you would be concerned about because of the chance it could lead to violence... imagine being the person on the short side of the power imbalance, the person to whom the comment is directed.

 

[HERB brooks]

The actual intent with the sweetheart thing is largely irrelevant when we are talking about how it makes actual women disc golfers feel when people on the course call them sweetheart. It sounds like on some level you do understand that.
I guess what I'm saying is that just meaning well and doing what we are doing isn't working. Many women don't feel comfortable on the course. It's on us to strategically address that.

While I cant relate to a woman in this situation I can empathize with being offended or upset by someone's comments.

I used to go to a 90-95% Caucasian school as a mixed race kid. My buddies all called me a wetbeck and all the names. At first it made me feel angry and was frustrated by it. Eventually I realized most of them we just giving me crap and didn't really mean anything bad by it other than good natured ribbing. Sure there were a couple who probably meant it but I wasn't gonna change their thought process anyways. The less offended you get by things said to you the happier you will be.

Does this make me a better person than the OP...no way. Having thick skin is important... the world doesn't have safe spaces, and lots of people suck.

 

[Pymm]

Wow, lots of opinions in this thread; some thoughtful, some repulsive. If DG is simply a cross-section of society, like any other activity, then you are going to see some terrible behavior, like we all see every day in everyday life.That bad behavior doesn't cause most of us to detach from society nor should it cause you to stop disc golfing. If you met some sexist jerk at the supermarket, you wouldn't stop shopping for food (I know this is a bit reductionist but illustrates my point, I think). If you enjoy DG, then enjoy it while knowing that occasionally you will run into some asshats, just like any other activity you do, going to a concert, club, driving, the supermarket, a sporting event, etc. Jerks are painfully common in all aspects of life, unfortunately, but it doesn't mean that we all just give up doing things we like.

 

[Anon]

I know this won't probably be a popular opinion but I think the OP could have easily diffused the first situation by, perhaps, making light of the situation hitting the trees (all disc golfers do this) with a little self-deprecating humor and a witty comeback.

I know most of us don't walk around with a laundry list of witty comebacks just waiting to be employed... but it just feels like showing somebody that you don't take yourself so seriously instantly takes away any weight of their 'insult.' This applies to any gender situation. Not just male vs. female.

The second guy mouthing 'sexy' is a creep. Plain and simple. We all (male and female) have internal thoughts when we see somebody that we may be attracted to. Its not wrong or evil to think somebody is attractive or sexy.

Vocalizing it in a public and unwanted situation however is the textbook definition of CREEPY.