Dead Limbs in the lie.

[rhatton1]

So here's another one that occurred recently that I was asked about and not really sure the answer,.

Relevant rule -803.01 B 1: A player may move casual obstacles that are on or behind the lie partially or completely on the lie or in the stance area, regardless of whether they extend in front of or behind the lie. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.

A friend who is a big guy found his lie in the middle of a fallen branch, when I say branch it's more like a whole tree, it's actually been on the side of the fairway on this hole for around 3 years but had been moved further out than it normally was when they came to it in the competition. It's big, sticking up over head height. It was clearly dead and unconnected.

As such he moved it so his lie was clear, he was only just able to move it and a smaller person wouldn't have done. By moving this branch he drastically changed the hole for everyone playing the course through after as it was blocking one of the lines off the tee about 80 meters up (It's not a course feature that is supposed to be there but earlier groups had had to adjust) . With it gone this line was suddenly open again.

He felt that it was an unfair thing to do because of the change to the course but group encouraged him to and the rule is there. His next question was where did he have to leave it as effectively he could have dragged it out of his lie onto another part of the fairway blocking another potential line off the tee (he didn't he moved it back into the undergrowth where it had been for years.)


What's the situation here. How big a branch can you move? I can think of one hole at a course where the old downed oak branch is a course feature, but effectively by the rules that could be moved couldn't it?

Where do you have to move it to? What penalty would occur if any if you did drag it out into the middle of another line on the fairway?

If it had been left in the fairway would you be able to walk down the fairway and move it if you were a later group under 3: A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles

 

[BillFleming]

Refer to the Questions and Answers section of the Rules for "can he move it"

QA-OBS-2: A large broken branch (a foot in diameter and eight feet long) is in my stance. Am I allowed to move it?
Yes, if you are able. There is no limit on the size of a casual obstacle as long as it meets the definition. You can move it as long as that's practicable and you throw within the 30 seconds allowed by the Excessive Time rule.

So, yes he was allowed to move it.

I don't see anything in the rules concerning where you can/can't move the obstruction to. My 'guess' is that if you move it to a place that blocks another person, they can move it per the rules. The "unofficial" rule I have heard is to move it only as far as needed to where it no longer affects your run-up or stance.

 

[Rastnav]

This feels like one of those small omissions from the rules. The kind of "the devil is in the details" that make a seemingly simple game require increasingly complex rule sets.

Although it would have been rude and unsporting, I think, theoretically, he could have moved that large branch anywhere, including somewhere that it blocked lines even more completely. I mean, that's likely how the branch ended up where it was in the first place. Theoretically if you ended up near the green with large dead brush in your stance, you could move it to block your opponents putt. They wouldn't be able to move it because there isn't anything in the rules about moving dead things in the line of play, only in the stance. Perhaps there is some rule or guidance that says where you can move something, but even then, what if some non-player were to alter the course in this manner at some point? Could a player ask a TD to re-alter the course?

Maybe I'm completely wrong here, IDK.

 

[zenbot]

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Looks like an official was right on top of this, but...




That don't seem kosher. :\

 

[txmxer]

There are sportsmanship requirements. If you moved something that would interfere with another player that would be a clear violation.

 

[BillFleming]

Regarding the spectators helping Tiger Woods move the rock....this is from GolfDigest:

The incident remains controversial because it spoke to the advantage Woods had in having a large gallery. Would a Monday qualifier in the first grouping get the same help? Probably not. But 15 years later, the USGA maintains what the player did was perfectly within the Rules of Golf, citing Decision 23-1/3: "May spectators, caddies, fellow-competitors, etc., assist a player in removing a large loose impediment?" The answer is "Yes."

For Disc Golf, the PDGA rules specifically state "A PLAYER may move.....<etc>". Emphasis is mine. No where does it say a player and others. So the same couldn't happen in disc golf (at least not happen following the rules).

 

[Cgkdisc]

The 2013 rule book provided free relief moving back on LOP up to 5 meters from loose obstacles that were allowed to be moved but impractical to do so such as big limbs or brush piles off the fairway that hadn't been cleaned up. Here's the text from the 2013 Rule book: 803.01B ...To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director)."

As a marshal at 2012 Worlds, I applied this rule (on camera) to allow Wysocki to move back a little bit from a big limb that could have been moved with great effort, ala Tiger Woods rock. But allowing the 6 inches of free relief for his foot placement was a better choice. He still had to throw from an awkward stance on one knee.

Even though this specific relief rule was removed from the current 2018 rule book, I believe the TD has the power per current 803.02 A to invoke this "free relief moving back on LOP if loose object can't be moved" as a blanket rule for the event if they wish. But I'm guessing few if any realized they could do it or have done so. I remember PDGA Exec Dir, Brian Graham, stating free relief from brush piles in an early event at the IDGC when work had recently been done on the courses and several brush piles had not yet been moved.

 

[txmxer]

I wonder why the rule was removed?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I wonder why the rule was removed?

The specifics were removed but not the option for TDs to apply it selectively or broadly. I suspect that subtlety was overlooked by many TDs.

 

[brutalbrutus]

The specifics were removed but not the option for TDs to apply it selectively or broadly. I suspect that subtlety was overlooked by many TDs.

Also, i would imagine that giving only the TD the power to do it would negate players from trying some shenanigans

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Also, i would imagine that giving only the TD the power to do it would negate players from trying some shenanigans

Removal of shenanigans is why I stopped playing tourneys, and let my PDGA membership lapse.

BRING SHENANIGANS BACK TO DG!!!!

 

[rhatton1]

The 2013 rule book provided free relief moving back on LOP up to 5 meters from loose obstacles that were allowed to be moved but impractical to do so such as big limbs or brush piles off the fairway that hadn't been cleaned up. Here's the text from the 2013 Rule book: 803.01B ...To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director)."

As a marshal at 2012 Worlds, I applied this rule (on camera) to allow Wysocki to move back a little bit from a big limb that could have been moved with great effort, ala Tiger Woods rock. But allowing the 6 inches of free relief for his foot placement was a better choice. He still had to throw from an awkward stance on one knee.

Even though this specific relief rule was removed from the current 2018 rule book, I believe the TD has the power per current 803.02 A to invoke this "free relief moving back on LOP if loose object can't be moved" as a blanket rule for the event if they wish. But I'm guessing few if any realized they could do it or have done so. I remember PDGA Exec Dir, Brian Graham, stating free relief from brush piles in an early event at the IDGC when work had recently been done on the courses and several brush piles had not yet been moved.

Have you got more specifics to this Chuck? I can't really find the relevant info. It would be a very useful thing for a new course we are working on that has multiple cleared brush piles to the sides of fairways being left for wildlife and i've been wondering how to deal withthem in tournament play

 

[krupicka]

Have you got more specifics to this Chuck? I can't really find the relevant info. It would be a very useful thing for a new course we are working on that has multiple cleared brush piles to the sides of fairways being left for wildlife and i've been wondering how to deal withthem in tournament play

You can just declare them as a 806.03 Casual Area or 806.04 Relief Area depending on how you want it played.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Have you got more specifics to this Chuck? I can't really find the relevant info. It would be a very useful thing for a new course we are working on that has multiple cleared brush piles to the sides of fairways being left for wildlife and i've been wondering how to deal with them in tournament play

TDs can provide extended free relief when specified in advance of an event per the rule cited:
803.02 Relief from Obstacles. A. A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief.

or you could apply:
806.03 Casual Area. A. A casual area is casual water, or any area specifically designated as a casual area by the Director before the round. Casual water is any body of water that is in-bounds, and has not been explicitly declared by the Director to be in play. B. To obtain relief from a casual area, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

or this might be the best option if you don't want players to mark their lie on, move or remove any brush, meaning they must move back/away from any twigs, branches or brush piles in their lie.
806.04 Relief Area. A. A relief area is an area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, or any in-bounds area that players are prohibited by law from entering. A relief area is played as an out-of-bounds area with the exception that no penalty throw is assessed to a player whose disc comes to rest in a relief area.