Designing Your First Course: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned

[DagG]

all this chat about debris piles reminds me of last winter's project.

Clearing without power tools can alleviate liability concerns. With decent quality hand tools, it's not as difficult as one might think. I cut maybe 2000' of wooded fairway last winter and it only occupied about a third of my work time.

Agreeing to remove all cut debris to a central burn pile was a much greater time commitment than I had imagined, the other two thirds of my work time. I could get by with cutting the smaller trees in two for transport by pick up but some of the bigger ones needed limbing and cutting into manageable weight pieces, at time five or six from some of the larger trees.

 

[duckychucky]

To me it makes way more sense to rent a mulcher and just mulch all the extra wood. Then you get rid of the piles all together and have some mulch to use where it might get soggy.

Woodchipping or mulching is a far better alternative. The problem with renting one it that you want to get your moneys worth (they are not cheap to rent) so you need to do all your limbing ahead of time, which means piling them probably in or just off fairway so you can drive woodchipper in. By the time you cut everything, the piles sit long enough to get all the branches stuck together and it becomes a huge pain pulling them apart and feeding chipper, plus you are essentially handling the limbs twice. If you own one you can chip as you go, cleaning up everything behind you leaving a trail of mulch/chips. This was a mistake I made on my first course. We actually own a chipper, but piled everything up first to chip later. It sucked yanking the branches apart and when the chipper broke we were left with nasty piles on a few fairways for a few months.

 

[DavidSauls]

Like many topics in this thread, debris pile vs. burn pile vs. chipper options vary from course to course.

On a private course with lots of unused woods, debris/drag piles may be easiest. Burning debris may be prohibited in many places, particularly public parks. Chippers may be out of the budget, or otherwise impractical.

It is an important point that has been raised that in designing and planning installation of a course, if it involves cutting fairways out of the woods, there's going to be a lot of stuff that you have to do something with.

 

[Menacewarf]

To me it makes way more sense to rent a mulcher and just mulch all the extra wood. Then you get rid of the piles all together and have some mulch to use where it might get soggy.

I like burning because it's free and I don't need any wood chips on my course. I never expect to have high traffic and much prefer a more natural forest floor with club moss and little plants (all of which would get wiped out in high traffic) No wet areas either. Also tending a fire and running a saw to me is more fun than all the trouble of renting, hauling, and running noisy equipment .

Of course it just depends on whatever works for the person/ project. I've been fairing ok with just a chainsaw and loppers but that's def kind of bare bones. I saw a guy out in Ohio on a course running a stump grinder and I was kind of salivating.

 

[kenjiac]

Another great use of removed trees, Benches. Larger diameter trees make great natural benches.

 

[Steve West]

This talk reminds me of another one. Don't assume there are no resources. Sure, if you claim you can install and maintain the course with volunteer labor and fundraising, they'll take you up on it.

However, if the owner of the course has the resources, it is better if they use them. They may have many times the money and labor you could ever pull together. Find out first.

 

[Kenny53691]

Another great use of removed trees, Benches. Larger diameter trees make great natural benches.

I agree, I like the look of the "natural" benches.

This talk reminds me of another one. Don't assume there are no resources. Sure, if you claim you can install and maintain the course with volunteer labor and fundraising, they'll take you up on it.

However, if the owner of the course has the resources, it is better if they use them. They may have many times the money and labor you could ever pull together. Find out first.

This is some great advice. Some times all you have to do is ask around to find someone that may have some tools that you could benefit from.

 

[DavidSauls]

Another great use of removed trees, Benches. Larger diameter trees make great natural benches.

Absolutely.

Just don't be foolish like us and use the large stumps for the bench support, as well. They're not rot-resistant and will collapse, probably at a tournament. (Stoney Hill Mistake & Lesson Learned #37, if anyone's counting).

 

[DagG]

This talk reminds me of another one. Don't assume there are no resources. Sure, if you claim you can install and maintain the course with volunteer labor and fundraising, they'll take you up on it.

However, if the owner of the course has the resources, it is better if they use them. They may have many times the money and labor you could ever pull together. Find out first.

Yes, though keep in mind this puts you on their schedule. Baskets for my current project have been sitting in the park district warehouse since early May. The park district runs a small crew and between all the rain doubling the normal mowing load and leaky pool and however many other fires which needed to be put out, it's just now that they'll be able to install sleeves. I could have done this myself but when we initially spoke of division of labor on the project, this was on their side of things. Since we've discussed potential for expansion beyond the initial design depending upon how the course is received by the community and since I am not lacking on chores that need be done on my side of things, I felt it important to establish boundaries even if it meant delaying opening by a couple months.

 

[jdawg24]

Great thread! Here are a few thoughts I have, based on designing two courses in public parks and one on private land.

1 - Understand your constraints before doing anything. For the private land course I worked on (North GA Canopy tours), the course went from owner expressing interest in having a course to a fully playable course with permanent baskets in 3 months. They had paid labor to install the course and imposed minimal constraints on the design (i.e. we could remove any trees, and they had plenty of land). All we had to do was mark the course, and they did the rest, which is ideal.

One of the public courses (Perkerson Park) was the opposite experience and it's taken years to install because they keep changing the constraints. We had/have extreme restrictions on what trees we can remove, which change each time the arborist position changes. When designed, we could cut (for free) any hardwoods under 4" caliper, dead/dying trees, or invasives -- but anything above that requires a month-long process to approve and must replace the number of inches (i.e. plant 2, 2" trees if a 4" tree is removed, which works out to ~$100/inch). This made the design in a wooded area extremely difficult without blowing the budget. After the fact, a new arborist has changed it to 6", which would have been tremendously easier. Additional constraints at this park include a master planning process that took a year to figure out where exactly the course was allowed to go, and which resulted in several complete reworkings of the design. And lastly that they will not allow volunteers to use power tools (chainsaws) ... so everything must be done by hand tools.

2 - Don't count on volunteer labor, and don't underestimate the amount of work involved. While Perkerson was in a proposed state and getting approved, countless people expressed interest in helping build it. The city approved the course based on it being installed 100% by volunteer labor, or with funds raised by us. When it got approved, most of those people who'd expressed interest never helped out, and most of the rest only helped once or twice. People would rather play than work. It's been built mostly by about 4 people and we've racked up over 1,500 hours of labor with a lot of work remaining. When the course was being proposed, we didn't realize they wouldn't allow chainsaws or machinery, and that has probably doubled the labor involved. Nobody had any idea it would take the amount of work it has since only about half the holes are in wooded areas. So don't underestimate how much work it is, or what kind of restrictions your city may impose.

3 - Your design will change and evolve and changes may have ripple effects. Two of the three courses I've worked on had very limited space available based on city/county imposed limitations about where the course could play. I always try to maximize the use of space, which in a tight space means that there is minimal excess land and some holes play near each other. This means that when you change a hole, it impacts several other holes in front of and around it, which can make the design tricky. During the design process you will probably change your mind about how some holes should play -- I know I do. So when you have limited space for the course and you are looking at a possible hole location or are considering a modification, think about how it will affect the holes around it. One change can often result in changing several other holes too. Bigger changes (like going from a par 3 to par 4) can result in bigger ripple effects.

 

[Sadjo]

IN my limited experience designing courses I would say one thing to do (I learned from John Houck) is to, if possible, layout all the possible holes the property gives you...whether or not they overlap each other or are too close to OB. You might end up with hundreds of holes or only 50 or so...then look to see which combination of 18 holes works best.

I did use that on one project and it really helped. It allows you to not disregard a possible hole location because you already have one using a portion of that land for another hole.

Also make sure to walk the property several times before putting anything on paper. Walk the property in the morning, middle of the day and at the end of the day. Gives you an idea about the setting and rising sun and how that will effect certain throws (throwing into the setting sun shouldn't be something on any course...most people play after work in the evening).

I find that walking the property several times allows me to see things I don't always notice the first few times walking the property.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Good advice.

Speaking from the perspective of private course design, I definitely think it's beneficial to find all the "best" holes and worry about how it'll all flow later down the line. I don't mean to say define EVERY hole, just the ones YOU CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT. The signature holes, so to speak.

Definitely a fine line to walk.

On one end of the spectrum, there's the risk of having a bunch of great holes but a complete mess in regards to flow, overlap, safety, etc. On the other side of things, this method guarantees the best of the best available terrain is implemented and will occasionally lead to some ideas for connecting holes that might have be missed otherwise.

A delicate balancing act, for sure, and not one I'd necessarily recommend if you're new to designing courses. Luckily, the private aspect of the course in conjunction with no land / flow/ safety/ nature restrictions on the part of the owner really allowed us to find the cream of the crop and then figure out what we needed to do to get it all flowing nice and neatly.

Personally, having seen a fairly high number of courses from Top 10ers to the worst dreck ever really helped me get an intuitive feel for course flow as well as when we could get away with something and when there was just no chance for something to work.

TL;DR version: Start with the best, design around that. Course flow *should* fall into place on its own.

 

[Dave242]

(throwing into the setting sun shouldn't be something on any course...most people play after work in the evening)

I have a lot of respect for the designs you have done as well as the promotion of the game. I also dig almost everyone of your posts I have read here. But.....this is just silly. There is no way ever that implementing an otherwise good hole should be trumped by this consideration. I'll concede though that you should maybe sometimes consider avoiding this on a filler/transition hole.

 

[Sadjo]

I have a lot of respect for the designs you have done as well as the promotion of the game. I also dig almost everyone of your posts I have read here. But.....this is just silly. There is no way ever that implementing an otherwise good hole should be trumped by this consideration. I'll concede though that you should maybe sometimes consider avoiding this on a filler/transition hole.

There's an exception that proves ever rule. Maybe a great hole is the exception. Nothing is 100%.

 

[DavidSauls]

I've played a few where the setting sun was a killer---especially uphill. But the sunset moves on the horizon over the course of the year so that, even if you wanted to avoid it, you'd be hard-pressed to.

 

[f'in draggin']

To me it makes way more sense to rent a mulcher and just mulch all the extra wood. Then you get rid of the piles all together and have some mulch to use where it might get soggy.

if there's any way to afford it, this is the way to go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0ts8D1qosZY

 

[John Theiss]

Machinery
-If you need to clear a lot of woods, i recommend a T-300 forestry cutter by Bobcat. i love this machine. I have used a similar machine made by Takeuchi and it was a major disappointment. Even if you have limited funds, this piece of machinery will save so much time and additional work. Rent equipment on the wknd and get a better deal than through the week. Dozers and track loaders are great, but the forestry cutter turns everything into wood chips so there are no piles pushed/carried to side, no root balls pushed up leaving extra grading work, no stumps to be tripped over in fairways, no need for a chipper and having to load it, and it carves through material so quickly that you could have a hole cut out in as little as minutes or even hours.

Routing
-use a topo map in the beginning to learn the land better. when laying out your course on paper, print off several google maps and just mark the best holes on the maps. then try to figure several different routes using best holes but don't worry about if route is complete and draw your different routes out. Have 2-3 routes that you really like and look for the best balanced course. Once you have several routes figured from your google print outs, you are now ready to use your topo map. Designate each route a color ie yellow, orange, pink. Cut each hole out to the scale of the hole using the key on the map and the chosen color. this will help you get the distances you want on the course. Also make sure that you cut the paper as the hole would play-meaning the paper strips are not just straight. On each piece of colored paper you cut out, write the hole number on it. because with so many colored papers overlapping, it can get confusing. now you have a really great puzzle with pieces that can move around.


Wood holes
-flagging tape is best for designing wood holes like so many have mentioned. I will use pink to mark trees that i will possibly remove and this helps create your throw lanes as your eye is able to almost see thru the trees. then i mark with green tape(and tell park guys that green means to be Earthy/environmentally green and do not cut) on the trees that will line the fairway. this helps volunteers or park employees if coming in with brush hog/weed eaters and a lot can be done with out you having to cut it out
-once a wood hole has been marked with flagging tape, look at the hole backward from the basket and it is amazing how much easier the hole might appear, but also spend a lot of time in middle of hole looking back and forth at tee/green to ensure angels/lines are correct.
-designing woods holes in winter is best like mentioned before, however, be sure that you wait till spring or even summer to make sure the integral trees are still alive. it is hard to tell if a tree just died recently in the winter
-for woody holes, use a long extendable pole like a pool skimmer or telescoping pole(ie like a hand tree saw ) to mark your tee and basket location and tie several pieces of your flagging tape to one end of it. the more tape the better, because some pieces might get tangled in branches or blocked from view obstacle in the line of sight.

Open holes
-for open holes use stake ( i like to use 5 foot 1/8 inch rebar poles) to mark baskets and tees in open grassy fields. As mentioned before, small ground flags will soon be engulfed by the grass and get mowed over. find an object that can be pushed into ground like metal poles vs something needed to be pounded in and then you have to carry a mini sledge. take flagging tape and wrap around the end of pole. use different colors for basket/tee
-on more open parts of the course, strive to have tees angled in different directions if possible to have the wind come into play differently, vs 9 holes with the wind at back and 9 holes with wind in face


-sometimes you have to have a junk/open hole to link two great holes. however, plant flora that grows quickly ie eastern red cedars, or build a mound for basket or elevate the basket, have someone bring in large round hay bales or RR ties and place near tee or around basket

- short holes in woods, open fields, or water behind in front can be the best risk reward holes, even if they are just a link hole. put some OB in front and behind basket on super short holes. if you make a island placement, put basket to the back of island so a circle 3 is harder if they go OB
-borrow appropriate tools or invest in your craft-buy a telescoping pole chainsaw from Stihl(so you can do all the ceiling work vs the park dept trying and messing up the ceiling, buy a good mid range chainsaw, and buy a lazer range finder so you know exact distances when working on angles. plus saves you a lot of time walking back and forth stepping off the hole
-after cutting and removing flora, treat it with Tordon to ensure that it never comes back. Yes Tordon is super hard core stuff, however, enthusiasm and volunteerism can dwindle and course will quickly close up by obnoxious plants. ask part departments to give you the chemicals, they all have it and do the job right the first time
-have a trusted group of folks that you bring in after your route has been determined-find a bomber, a skilled line thrower, a wise crafty veteran, a woman who all can offer feedback and they will tell you how they would play the hole
-when working with park departments, always ask for more in the beginning, than having to go back later and ask. don't be afraid to shoot for the moon, cause you might still get the stars. yes they are busy, but they want the best for the park as do you. they may have limited resources/manpower, but they do have slower parts of the year and do need work at times so projects may be needed.

-you will make mistakes, do not beat yourself up. you will get better with time and your mistakes will be valuable experiences in your future endeavors. don't take it personal when people hate holes. folks will beat up your course but you are only human and you can't please everyone. you have to be thick skinned.

 

[John Theiss]

Access points
-one other important thing to try to incorporate on heavily wooded corridor type courses/holes is to think about how you can have several access points throughout the course for machinery and vehicles. This can be difficult to have without messing with the integrity of the hole. so be careful because you could end up giving some cheat routes. maybe it can't be done because the holes play in a linear fashion. think of it like the continental divide for park workers. getting thru and navigating the holes may be tough for park workers that do not know the course like you do (like climbing the mtns is tough to get to the divide), but once you get to the top, it is easy to navigate. setting the park guys/or private land owner up with several good access points allows them to manage their time better, mow easier, pick up trash bags, weed eat, or just drive thru park/land to check things out. when making an access point, cut it out so it plays like very small tight turning letter "c", in order to make it almost impossible for player to throw through but still easy to drive through.


Future expansion-avoid linear progression
-some other folks mentioned to be cognizant of future expansion of holes and the domino effect. if at all possible, don't line up the last hole with the next hole in linear fashion. if you do, you have no room for expansion and you get land locked. try to off set them like the letter "L", but they do not have to be that sharp turning.

Locating Green and fairway
-folks talk about working your way back, which is crucial. disc golf is a journey, so find that really great green that connect to great fairways and if you get lucky and you might have a great tee then that is a bonus. this is not the absolute, because great tees are just as important. But remember that in ball golf, putting is much more difficult than disc golf. Good greens or good protected greens mean score deviation. This process gets you walking in reverse which might help you see another great hole and route. It is easy to get tunnel vision once your preliminary route takes some shape, so don't get locked in to just one route. It becomes easy to panic and then try to force things that are not there do to you liking the route that you have. Focus on the fact that on great ball golf courses, most of the greens are the coolest part of the hole.

Ball golf and disc golf are different in many ways, but i recommend reading "Routing the golf course:the art and science that forms the golf journey" by Forrest L Richardson. You can read most of it for free online. You might pick up something useful or just build more knowledge to draw upon for future courses or course work. Not all info translates, but knowledge is knowledge.

 

[Kenny53691]

^^^ GREAT first two post! :clap:

 

[Jukeshoe]

-have a trusted group of folks that you bring in after your route has been determined-find a bomber, a skilled line thrower, a wise crafty veteran, a woman who all can offer feedback and they will tell you how they would play the hole

This is a great, great point that hasn't been brought up. Easier said than done in some areas, but a great point nonetheless.

Re: access points. This was something we got right (luckily) on our first design attempt. It became immediately apparent that our best land was at the back of the property, accessible only by foot (and even then a bit of chore to access). Instead of attempting to work this land right at the get-go, we spent a lot of our initial time and efforts in building access paths to various areas, eventually creating a loop around the property with side paths as needed to brush pile drop zones and other areas.

This allowed the quad and trailer (and hence our full collection of tools) to be easily and painlessly hauled around as needed. It made our lives so much easier later down the line to forego working on holes (soo tempting) and instead building the course "infrastructure" first.