Difficulty

[magictenor1]

My brother and I (aclay) had an interesting discussion today and I thought maybe others could weigh in. I said that difficulty can only be measured related to par and he said difficulty is just how many throws it takes you and par doesn't matter. Thoughts?

 

[ru4por]

I think a search for "What is par" would yield a cavalcade of responses to this.

 

[Jukeshoe]

I think a search for "What is par" would yield a cavalcade of responses to this.

 

[Steve West]

My brother and I (aclay) had an interesting discussion today and I thought maybe others could weigh in. I said that difficulty can only be measured related to par and he said difficulty is just how many throws it takes you and par doesn't matter. Thoughts?

It's both or either. You can also add the physical exertion required.

However, when announcers talk about "third most difficult hole on the course" and the like, they are comparing the average score for the field to the par on the hole.

 

[Improbably]

Par is not a metric of difficulty. Par is a metric of expectation.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Par is not a metric of difficulty. Par is a metric of expectation.

Par is the expectation put into the minds of players so they have something to judge their play off of.

I think a better framing for holes than difficulty is to go off of scoring separation. When a hole can distinguish between good and bad players as they get different scores, it is difficult to get the lower score. An example would be a hole that requires a dog-leg right, players are punished for not having that shape in their arsenal and thus it distinguishes the field into players who can shape that and those who can not. Now if a whole course is filled with holes that check for a certain skill in a players arsenal the course will create a whole lot of scoring separation. Although the individual holes might be easy for the well-rounded player with all shot shapes in their arsenal.

 

[DavidSauls]

My brother and I (aclay) had an interesting discussion today and I thought maybe others could weigh in. I said that difficulty can only be measured related to par and he said difficulty is just how many throws it takes you and par doesn't matter. Thoughts?

Perhaps difficulty is subjective and can't be measured.

Then again, sidestepping "what is par", perhaps the ratio of average score to median score would measure difficulty on a given hole. Or the ratio of better-than-median scores to median scores.

 

[biscoe]

Perhaps difficulty is subjective and can't be measured.

Then again, sidestepping "what is par", perhaps the ratio of average score to median score would measure difficulty on a given hole. Or the ratio of better-than-median scores to median scores.

Strokes per foot would be a better measure of raw difficulty.

 

[ejvogie]

A hole with a dogleg right is inherently more difficult for me (RHBH, almost zero FH ability) than a dogleg left. 1 more vote for the "difficulty is subjective" camp.

 

[DavidSauls]

Strokes per foot would be a better measure of raw difficulty.

Probably works better for a course as a whole, rather than a single hole. Unless a formula for elevation change is applied to the distance.

Though I can think of some other holes where strokes-per-foot is deceiving. Admittedly, these tend to be poorly-designed ones.

 

[_MTL_]

Difficulty, if you had to define it is the difference between Par and SSA. The higher the difference, the harder it is.

Tie breaker is the higher SSA.

Example:

A course with a par of 54 and an SSA of 54 is harder than a course with a par of 70 and SSA of 63, even though you will likely shoot a lower score on the par 54 course.

 

[DavidSauls]

Does a change of designated "par" change how difficult a course is?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Does a change of designated "par" change how difficult a course is?

The problem with your question is that it assumes that the par of a course can be changed. Of course, it can, but if par is to have any real meaning, changing par assumes that the course is also changed and not just the par designation. There is a correct way of setting par. If you take the position that par is subjective, then to you, "par" and "difficulty" should be essentially meaningless. However, if there is a correct way to set par, and their is (as well as a correct person to set it), then "difficulty" can also easily and meaningfully be defined in terms of actual score in relation to par.

 

[DavidSauls]

The problem with your question is that it assumes that the par of a course can be changed. Of course, it can, but if par is to have any real meaning, changing par assumes that the course is also changed and not just the par designation. There is a correct way of setting par. If you take the position that par is subjective, then to you, "par" and "difficulty" should be essentially meaningless. However, if there is a correct way to set par, and their is (as well as a correct person to set it), then "difficulty" can also easily and meaningfully be defined in terms of actual score in relation to par.

Actually, I take the position that "par" is often not correctly set, so is an unreliable measure of difficulty.

It's why SSA/Par isn't a precise measure of difficulty.

 

[_MTL_]

Does a change of designated "par" change how difficult a course is?

that does absolutely put a wrinkle in my equation. Certainly a hole is not harder or easier if par changes.

 

[aclay]

that does absolutely put a wrinkle in my equation. Certainly a hole is not harder or easier if par changes.

I was the other participant in the original discussion, and this was my major point. The difficulty is how many throws it takes to complete the hole. Somewhat related is the margin for error. If I can make a poor tee shot and recover with my approach and still make 3 on Hole A, that hole is easier than Hole B where a poor tee shot puts me in position where I can't make 3. However, over time, the average score with show that because I will make some poor tee shots and make higher scores on Hole B than Hole A. The par designation is not related to that in any way.

 

[DavidSauls]

I once played a mostly wide-open, 14,000-foot course. With my arm, it was a LOT of throws. I'd describe it as tedious and grueling, but not particularly difficult.

 

[DavidSauls]

that does absolutely put a wrinkle in my equation. Certainly a hole is not harder or easier if par changes.

I do think, with well-set par, that SSA/Par is one reasonable way to describe difficulty.

We have a private course with 2 layouts; the pars are somewhat casually set, blue-level, but at least consistent. The easier layout comes to 55/62, and the harder to 58.5/62. Same par, different difficulty, and anyone who plays them would at least agree which layout is more difficult.

But there are reasonable arguments for total throws (a course that takes more throws usually feels like it was more difficult), or even terrain (a very hilly course feels more difficult). For that matter, the variety of shots requried might make a course feel more difficult to someone.

 

[biscoe]

Actually, I take the position that "par" is often not correctly set, so is an unreliable measure of difficulty.

It's why SSA/Par isn't a precise measure of difficulty.

Agreed.

Can you give me an example of a hole where strokes/foot would be deceptive in quantifying difficulty? Variables such as elevation, foliage, etc will already be reflected in the scoring so no need to adjust for them. IMO a 200 foot hole that takes 5 strokes on average to complete is quantifiably more difficult than one which takes 3 strokes on average to complete.

 

[DavidSauls]

Agreed.

Can you give me an example of a hole where strokes/foot would be deceptive in quantifying difficulty? Variables such as elevation, foliage, etc will already be reflected in the scoring so no need to adjust for them. IMO a 200 foot hole that takes 5 strokes on average to complete is quantifiably more difficult than one which takes 3 strokes on average to complete.

As a simple example, a 100 foot hole will take an average of 2 strokes, or 50'/throw.

A 200 foot hole with take an average of 2 strokes, too, or about 100'/throw.

I'm not sure we'd call the first hole twice as hard as the second.

A wide-open 400' hole that averages 3 strokes, will come to 133'/throw. Is it even easier?