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disc golf in a cave/former mine?!?!
- Thread starter apdrvya
- Start date
It's tough to get great pictures down there for sure.
Jaysus
Double Eagle Member
The pics are great, thanks for sharing!
I absolutely love this concept!
I absolutely love this concept!
412Disc
Double Eagle Member
Pretty cool, not going to lie
elevated plastic
Double Eagle Member
My girlfriend is playing here tomorrow night. I'm so jealous.........
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2011
- Messages
- 266
I want to pass along some new info about Crystal City Underground DGC
AND
I want to reply to some comments on the course reviews.
First, the news: The course now owns 36 real baskets and will be installing them over the course of the next week. They may not make it to 36, but 18 will be in place by next weekend.
The fee structure has changed a bit. $5 will buy you access to an 18 holes, $10 will get you access to 36 holes. There are now security checks in place to prevent folks from sneaking in their own booze (this is a private business and they must follow the laws to keep their liquor license or there will be NO alchohol in the cave at all - so don't spoil it for everyone else by trying to be a cheapskate or letting minors drink). Also, they are taking special measures to enforce the NO SMOKING rule. It is a closed in space, with poor ventilation and, as with any cave, there is the potential for pockets of gas from time to time. DON'T SMOKE.
YEAH, 36 in the Underground!
OK, for some of the comments in the course reviews:
First, this course IS being designed by actual veteran disc golfers and course designers. The owner of CCU did NOT design the course and is not managing the course - just collecting money to help pay the bills. The local club, The JC Sharpshooters, manages the course and Mark Dude and Joe McKee are the main designers. They were given some serious limitations on the first two layouts, there wasn't much lighting when the current setup was established, but that is becoming a thing of the past and this course WILL become better and better over the course of this summer.
For the comments about a lack of variety, I think those people are still thinking about topography. The entire landscape of a cave is too different to compare it to an outdoor course. Every hole down there still embraces all of the same aspects we look for in a good outdoor course, minus dramatic elevation changes. Even then, the course is not completely without some interesting and unique topography.
Every hole has a different ceiling height and every hole has a different passage width, so you simply cannot, as with most big outdoor courses, worry only about where your disc lands. On the shots with a narrow passage, you have to be very careful to keep your throw flat, low and accurate. It's not the same as a tunnel shot in the woods - you might get lucky and slip through the trees without hitting one, but the wall in the cave isn't going to give you any forgiveness.
At least 70% of the holes require some real shot shaping, so you must have a good grip on back-hand, fore-hand, hyzer, anhyzer and picking the right disc. There are also many holes where you have to make a choice between two totally different paths to the basket: one is more forgiving but you will be forced to settle for par, where the other is going to be tough to get right but sets you up for the birdie.
Also, how about some love for the ability to develop a new DG skill: ricochete shots. Learning where to hit the walls or ceiling with the right type of throw is not something you get to do outdoors.
The walls are not as hard on the discs as so many have assumed and claimed. YES, you get a scuffed texture to the edge of the discs, but that doesn't get any worse after it gets to that point. I've played this course about 25 times now, using the same discs and they are no worse now than they were after the 4th or 5th game.
Teeing off the sand, for me, isn't a big deal. To be honest, I never even thought about it until I heard other people discussing it. I don't get whats so hard about it. You're not going to stumble or trip... it's the same consistency the entire way while you're walking... I believe that if you don't think about it, you will do just fine. That said, I know that there is an ongoing discussion amongst the designers, the owner and some regulars about a "teepad solution". I'm a fan of using some water and a tamper to create a firm surface on the sand, just like they did to create the road the owners use to drive equipment in on.
Something that really bugs me is all the debate over discs vs. lighting. Good grief. All you need are the blinking LED's carefully taped to the underneath of a clear plastic disc. If you tape them carefully and seal them down, they will NOT fall off and will NOT go out if you land in a water hazard. You do NOT need a flashlight for every player. I have played many rounds where none of us never even had to turn on a light once. There is plenty of lighting down there and the LED's just help you keep your eye on the disc while it flies against the black backgrounds. Occaisionally you need a little extra help finding a terrible shot, but it usually turns out that the person forgot to turn on their LED or managed to knock it to the off position by really nailing a wall... but they WILL still run underwater (if you taped it right). Glow discs are a waste of time, they don't stay glowing long enough to make it past the first 4 or 5 holes before they need a 20 minute recharge - don't bother. The LEDs are cheap, last a long time and save so much time and trouble - you're just silly if you don't use them.
Things I agree are wrong: It's busy and you sometimes have to wait. The signage can be really terrible the first time through a new layout and seriously needs to be improved. The "map/scorecard" if you can get one, is lame and was thrown together with 1 days notice for the collegiate doubles tourney (but, since it's so busy, there is no reason you can't just follow the group in front of you or ask someone). There are a few places where you really have to watch out for discs from other holes or players who didn't check to see if you were clear (some redesigns will fix this).
I do not mean to sound like I regect or don't appreciate all the thoughtful comments made. Everyone has and is perfectly entitled to their opinions and comments. I just wanted to be able to express some counter thoughts of my own without having to write them into my old as hell review.
Thanks everyone.
AND
I want to reply to some comments on the course reviews.
First, the news: The course now owns 36 real baskets and will be installing them over the course of the next week. They may not make it to 36, but 18 will be in place by next weekend.
The fee structure has changed a bit. $5 will buy you access to an 18 holes, $10 will get you access to 36 holes. There are now security checks in place to prevent folks from sneaking in their own booze (this is a private business and they must follow the laws to keep their liquor license or there will be NO alchohol in the cave at all - so don't spoil it for everyone else by trying to be a cheapskate or letting minors drink). Also, they are taking special measures to enforce the NO SMOKING rule. It is a closed in space, with poor ventilation and, as with any cave, there is the potential for pockets of gas from time to time. DON'T SMOKE.
YEAH, 36 in the Underground!
OK, for some of the comments in the course reviews:
First, this course IS being designed by actual veteran disc golfers and course designers. The owner of CCU did NOT design the course and is not managing the course - just collecting money to help pay the bills. The local club, The JC Sharpshooters, manages the course and Mark Dude and Joe McKee are the main designers. They were given some serious limitations on the first two layouts, there wasn't much lighting when the current setup was established, but that is becoming a thing of the past and this course WILL become better and better over the course of this summer.
For the comments about a lack of variety, I think those people are still thinking about topography. The entire landscape of a cave is too different to compare it to an outdoor course. Every hole down there still embraces all of the same aspects we look for in a good outdoor course, minus dramatic elevation changes. Even then, the course is not completely without some interesting and unique topography.
Every hole has a different ceiling height and every hole has a different passage width, so you simply cannot, as with most big outdoor courses, worry only about where your disc lands. On the shots with a narrow passage, you have to be very careful to keep your throw flat, low and accurate. It's not the same as a tunnel shot in the woods - you might get lucky and slip through the trees without hitting one, but the wall in the cave isn't going to give you any forgiveness.
At least 70% of the holes require some real shot shaping, so you must have a good grip on back-hand, fore-hand, hyzer, anhyzer and picking the right disc. There are also many holes where you have to make a choice between two totally different paths to the basket: one is more forgiving but you will be forced to settle for par, where the other is going to be tough to get right but sets you up for the birdie.
Also, how about some love for the ability to develop a new DG skill: ricochete shots. Learning where to hit the walls or ceiling with the right type of throw is not something you get to do outdoors.
The walls are not as hard on the discs as so many have assumed and claimed. YES, you get a scuffed texture to the edge of the discs, but that doesn't get any worse after it gets to that point. I've played this course about 25 times now, using the same discs and they are no worse now than they were after the 4th or 5th game.
Teeing off the sand, for me, isn't a big deal. To be honest, I never even thought about it until I heard other people discussing it. I don't get whats so hard about it. You're not going to stumble or trip... it's the same consistency the entire way while you're walking... I believe that if you don't think about it, you will do just fine. That said, I know that there is an ongoing discussion amongst the designers, the owner and some regulars about a "teepad solution". I'm a fan of using some water and a tamper to create a firm surface on the sand, just like they did to create the road the owners use to drive equipment in on.
Something that really bugs me is all the debate over discs vs. lighting. Good grief. All you need are the blinking LED's carefully taped to the underneath of a clear plastic disc. If you tape them carefully and seal them down, they will NOT fall off and will NOT go out if you land in a water hazard. You do NOT need a flashlight for every player. I have played many rounds where none of us never even had to turn on a light once. There is plenty of lighting down there and the LED's just help you keep your eye on the disc while it flies against the black backgrounds. Occaisionally you need a little extra help finding a terrible shot, but it usually turns out that the person forgot to turn on their LED or managed to knock it to the off position by really nailing a wall... but they WILL still run underwater (if you taped it right). Glow discs are a waste of time, they don't stay glowing long enough to make it past the first 4 or 5 holes before they need a 20 minute recharge - don't bother. The LEDs are cheap, last a long time and save so much time and trouble - you're just silly if you don't use them.
Things I agree are wrong: It's busy and you sometimes have to wait. The signage can be really terrible the first time through a new layout and seriously needs to be improved. The "map/scorecard" if you can get one, is lame and was thrown together with 1 days notice for the collegiate doubles tourney (but, since it's so busy, there is no reason you can't just follow the group in front of you or ask someone). There are a few places where you really have to watch out for discs from other holes or players who didn't check to see if you were clear (some redesigns will fix this).
I do not mean to sound like I regect or don't appreciate all the thoughtful comments made. Everyone has and is perfectly entitled to their opinions and comments. I just wanted to be able to express some counter thoughts of my own without having to write them into my old as hell review.
Thanks everyone.
Last edited:
What are you trying to use to glow up your discs? We use a blacklight flashlight to glow ours up and it does it in a few seconds, and way brighter than a regular flashlight will do. They are prety inexpensive, and easy to find online. I glow my discs up every hole and there is never any trouble finding them.
To change back to your subject though, I realy wanna play this course now that it's going to be 36 holes. I'm gonna have to figure out how to make a trip back there.
I didn't throw glow or led discs, I only spent more than 15 seconds looking for a disc a couple times. There's no rough, and if you listen for where it hits the walls in the darker areas it's easy to follow. Glow worked just fine for those throwing it, quick charge on the tee and it glows for the rest of the hole.
Chris - it was totally worth it at 18 holes, I'm going to have to make another trip down when they expand for sure.
Chris - it was totally worth it at 18 holes, I'm going to have to make another trip down when they expand for sure.
It's a bit longer of a trip for me, living in CA, allmost into Oregon.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2011
- Messages
- 266
Ah, that's cool. I never saw those.
It will be interesting to see if they actually put in 36 holes underground. When I was there they were talking about an updated 18 in the mine and an 18 above ground to start with and considering further expansion in the future.
DaddyTookTeebirdAway
Par Member
Wow, 36 holes now. Double the incentive for a summer road-trip.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,724
Got it on my wish list. Just curious - is there any reason they couldn't host a PDGA sanctioned event? 
I don't know about a PDGA event...would be some -20 rounds. I've played once around the 18 and feel like the next time around I would have a good shot at birding most holes. Though I'm sure players would come from pretty far away to play a sanctioned event.
They were planning on stretching out the layout to make it longer and somewhat tougher when they got the permanent baskets.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2011
- Messages
- 266
FAIL!
Went and played the new layout last night. I don't want to offend anyone but (being more inclined towards honesty) the new layout sucks pretty bad.
All but one of the signature holes from the original two layouts has been cut or deformed beyond recognition. The layout on the first 18 holes is far shorter than before and the new 18 was 65% back to back 150' right hand hyzer flick shots and 20% brutalizing over the water shots where there was no fairway, just a teepad, water and then basket (where you either made it all the way to the basket or you lost your disc in the underground lake).
The first 18 holes did not suffer from as much repetition, but it still had five short, RHFH hyzer shots. I saw opportunities to add an extra 100' to 150' on 6 of the first 18 holes and probably close to the same on the second 18. I couldn't find any justification for the new layout choices at all. Having nothing left of several great "signature" holes was also a huge disappointment.
There was also a terrible job done of defining which direction many of the tees were supposed to throw and, to make that even harder, you could often see between two and four baskets at once when you went out to go figure out where the basket was. There were lighted barrels that were supposed to point you to the basket or the next tee... but they were really vague and poorly placed. They could have easily put number signs on the brand new titan baskets, but instead chose to tie tiny little balloons with the number in magic marker to the bottom of the baskets... it was stupid and you couldn't see them unless you walked all the way up and picked up the balloon to turn it around.
I did find out that neither Mark Dudenhoffer nor Joe McKee, the original designers had anything at all to do with the new layout. The owner of Crystal City Underground said that he asked that the course be designed to allow for each 18 hole course to pass the concession stand/bar three times. I don't get it because the original course already started at the concession and portapotty, passed them between 9 and 10 and ended in the same place. I don't see how the new layout changes or improves on that at all. If they aren't getting enough business at the bar and want more frequent use of the portapotty, they could put in 1 more toilet and make use of the 4 golf carts they have to drive around the course selling beer and snacks.
On a positive note, the lighting is better than ever and the new Gateway Titan baskets were a welcome change from the variety of portables from before. There were also plenty of trashcans.
As bad as the course is right now, I, a person who has visited the cave about 20 times previously because of how much I liked it, will not play it again until I hear that the course has been drastically redesigned or returned to its original layout. Oh well, enough whining for now...
Went and played the new layout last night. I don't want to offend anyone but (being more inclined towards honesty) the new layout sucks pretty bad.
All but one of the signature holes from the original two layouts has been cut or deformed beyond recognition. The layout on the first 18 holes is far shorter than before and the new 18 was 65% back to back 150' right hand hyzer flick shots and 20% brutalizing over the water shots where there was no fairway, just a teepad, water and then basket (where you either made it all the way to the basket or you lost your disc in the underground lake).
The first 18 holes did not suffer from as much repetition, but it still had five short, RHFH hyzer shots. I saw opportunities to add an extra 100' to 150' on 6 of the first 18 holes and probably close to the same on the second 18. I couldn't find any justification for the new layout choices at all. Having nothing left of several great "signature" holes was also a huge disappointment.
There was also a terrible job done of defining which direction many of the tees were supposed to throw and, to make that even harder, you could often see between two and four baskets at once when you went out to go figure out where the basket was. There were lighted barrels that were supposed to point you to the basket or the next tee... but they were really vague and poorly placed. They could have easily put number signs on the brand new titan baskets, but instead chose to tie tiny little balloons with the number in magic marker to the bottom of the baskets... it was stupid and you couldn't see them unless you walked all the way up and picked up the balloon to turn it around.
I did find out that neither Mark Dudenhoffer nor Joe McKee, the original designers had anything at all to do with the new layout. The owner of Crystal City Underground said that he asked that the course be designed to allow for each 18 hole course to pass the concession stand/bar three times. I don't get it because the original course already started at the concession and portapotty, passed them between 9 and 10 and ended in the same place. I don't see how the new layout changes or improves on that at all. If they aren't getting enough business at the bar and want more frequent use of the portapotty, they could put in 1 more toilet and make use of the 4 golf carts they have to drive around the course selling beer and snacks.
On a positive note, the lighting is better than ever and the new Gateway Titan baskets were a welcome change from the variety of portables from before. There were also plenty of trashcans.
As bad as the course is right now, I, a person who has visited the cave about 20 times previously because of how much I liked it, will not play it again until I hear that the course has been drastically redesigned or returned to its original layout. Oh well, enough whining for now...
Bager45
Bogey Member
this is amazing, i guess i found where my first dg road trip will take place!!
Edgar Allan Bro
Bogey Member
I want to play there SO bad.
vanzandt
Newbie
thats just plain dope..i gotta get there before i die...
Snore
Par Member
Definitely plan on checking this out at some point I hope...but since of such a long journey for me I shall wait to they work the kinks out
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