"Disc Golf Not as Green as it seems"

[Menacewarf]

The rule of thumb is 25% or less of circumference damage is usually healable I believe. Now this may not take into account accumulative impacts from disc golf but I also believe such damage will only have major impacts just before and possibly durring the growth period.

 

[Matt B.]

good point. However, it is inescapable that the basic reason for the opposition is environmental, and therefore, some level of conflation is to be expected.

My point is that disc golf's footprint is relatively light in comparison to many other activities. If you want to get riled up about something, get riled up about the xl pipeline, fracking, or mountaintop removal...not disc golf.

I agree with your points. I think the use of terms like "environuts" can be interpreted to represent an opposition to environmentalism by disc golfers. This has come up a few times in this thread. I understand and share the frustration, but I don't think setting ourselves up as painting environmentalists as wack-jobs is helpful. Debate the specific issues or the specific arguments, yes.

The truth is, most disc golfers love the environment and want to protect it. The nature based, outdoors aspect of disc golf is one of the main attractions for most of us. Therefore, we have more in common with environmentalists than most developed sports. We need to bridge that gap, and align ourselves with conservation, good eco-conscious disc golf design, and appreciation and protection of the natural world in order to be able to say that Disc Golf IS Green.

Some courses have problems that need to be addressed and should have been addressed in design. New courses need to think about long term impacts on the land and design and plan accordingly. Neither one of these two statements means that disc golf is not already green, especially when considered relative to other developed recreational facilities, or any development in parks or open spaces. It IS a green sport, and it does instill an active appreciation of the environment in most disc golfers.

Does that mean disc golf should be developed everywhere, or that all disc golf courses should be denied due to potential impacts? Of course not. It's a case by case issue, and there are many shades of grey. I just personally am disappointed when we react to the kind of rabid opposition displayed by a group like Save McLaren park with an equally simplistic deployment of anti-environmentalist name calling.

To the OP of "environuts" - I am not trying to call you out personally. We all feel the frustration. But I've been a working "environut" for twenty years, and I will admit that those kind of terms get under my skin. And they don't help disc golf's case when we want to discuss impacts to disc golf courses.

 

[BirdmanCR]

Considering a lot of courses in the area started out as landfills. I think its a more "green" improvement.

 

[Moify]

Well said, Matt B. I do think we are more nature-friendly, generally speaking for all disc golfers. It's a relaxing sport, and I feel connected to nature every time I play.

It would be nice and cheap for course designers to maybe wrap "high risk" trees with a foam, metal, or something else to protect them. That would solve the distress issue on those trees. I don't think the trees in the fairway are damaged to enough to warrant adding protection.

I apologize, though. I didn't understand that constant trauma to a tree (like the human body) will negatively affect it. I just feel that even the worst trees off the tee pad are still growing and green. But I guess we humans are the same. We may look healthy, but trauma like that affects us negatively.

 

[Matt B.]

Well said, Matt B. I do think we are more nature-friendly, generally speaking for all disc golfers. It's a relaxing sport, and I feel connected to nature every time I play.

It would be nice and cheap for course designers to maybe wrap "high risk" trees with a foam, metal, or something else to protect them. That would solve the distress issue on those trees. I don't think the trees in the fairway are damaged to enough to warrant adding protection.

I apologize, though. I didn't understand that constant trauma to a tree (like the human body) will negatively affect it. I just feel that even the worst trees off the tee pad are still growing and green. But I guess we humans are the same. We may look healthy, but trauma like that affects us negatively.

There's plenty of tree protectors already in place on disc golf courses - everything from free standing nets, to mesh wrap, to lumber protectors. It can be done easily and relatively cheaply and also not look too bad. Severe damage is most common near tees, but some courses also protect trees on fairways and greens. It all depends on your goals and what kind of trees you have.

Even repeated disc impacts may not kill a tree, but just like any kind of natural trauma a tree gets - lightning, fire scars, etc - it will open them up to more easily be damaged by insects and disease. Disc golfers have more motivation than anyone to protect the trees on the course! People get shunned, threatened and smacked for breaking trees on disc golf courses - by disc golfers!

We just need to include proper tree protection as a regular part of design and installation. Same goes for planning for erosion and soil compaction. We know what the impacts are and where they will occur. Good design, and good stewardship can alleviate most impacts to an acceptable level. If the likely impacts of a course can not be mitigated to an acceptable level, then you have to question whether it is the right piece of land.

 

[ru4por]

as a professional naturalist and outdoor educator I can tell you that some trees do indeed suffer from permanent damage.

Yea, I think we, as disc golfers, need to be careful about our claims and be realistic in our take on how courses effect the surroundings. I have played several courses for up to two decades and rest assured there is significant damage done. Repeated blow to trees in the fairway, does kill trees. You can say they do not, but you would be wrong. Different type of terrain wears differently and foot traffic alone in the right area from disc golf can be devastating. I have played Golden Gate, near inception and last year, the changes are dramatic. Whether this is acceptable or recoverable is not for me to decide, but virtually all human activity in nature has a price. Fight the good fight guys. Disc golf is not evil.

 

[Peterb]

Well one way to deal with the issue is to mitigate. You can plant new trees, shrubs, and grasses on fairways, on the fringes, or even elsewhere. That was always the plan for McLaren park and in my opinion was completely overlooked by the community in its overtly negative response.

 

[geoblime]

Please don't conflate environmentalists with NIMBY activists. There is certainly some overlap, but I don't see any benefit to disc golfers taking a stance against environmentalists or environmentalism in general. This is not an "environut" issue.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion in this quote. No where did any one (or myself at least) indicate we should take a stance against environmentalist/ism. I'd like to think all of us golfers are environmentalists. But within that group the fact is there are environuts, plain and simple. I've spoken to and heard many over the years pertaining to disc golf, golf in SF, and McLaren Park. Their extreme views have made my jaw drop including lies and false facts to further their agenda.

The architects of Save McLaren and similar have blurred the lines of Nimbyism and Environmentalism, not us. They've combined to stop development of courses 30-60+ miles away from where they live, had environmental reviews requested, handed out leaflets, given "advice" to people in other parts of the country(they say only when requested), and are attempting to get Pinto Lake looked at or reconsidered. Pinto Lake is 90 miles away from SF!

I'm sorry if that term (environut) is offensive or disrespectful, especially to any disc golfers. It's not meant to be. But the fact is, they're here, and we've had to deal with them in the Bay Area for a very long time.

 

[Peterb]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion in this quote. No where did any one (or myself at least) indicate we should take a stance against environmentalist/ism. I'd like to think all of us golfers are environmentalists. But within that group the fact is there are environuts, plain and simple. I've spoken to and heard many over the years pertaining to disc golf, golf in SF, and McLaren Park. Their extreme views have made my jaw drop including lies and false facts to further their agenda.

The architects of Save McLaren and similar have blurred the lines of Nimbyism and Environmentalism, not us. They've combined to stop development of courses 30-60+ miles away from where they live, had environmental reviews requested, handed out leaflets, given "advice" to people in other parts of the country(they say only when requested), and are attempting to get Pinto Lake looked at or reconsidered. Pinto Lake is 90 miles away from SF!

I'm sorry if that term (environut) is offensive or disrespectful, especially to any disc golfers. It's not meant to be. But the fact is, they're here, and we've had to deal with them in the Bay Area for a very long time.

They haven't stopped course development, geoblime, only stalled it! The game is clearly expanding and there will be new course built. How and where is the key question. Even Ken and Tom and the others from SMP agree that disc golf deserves a place, they're just a bit misguided where it should be. While I and most folks would personally love to have a course on one of the city's money losing golf courses, that's an entirely new fight in and of itself. Most golf courses would be better disc courses if you could play cross fairway. It could only work on a defunct golf course. That's one possibility, though it is hard to find the right place to make that happen. It would require a team of investors to lease the land and set up the infrastructure for a pay to play.

The other thing to realize is that there are people everywhere who rightfully want a say in land use issues. While SMP has clearly revel themselves as park saviors and spreading the gospel they aren't the main group working against pinto lake or anna jean cummings.

Speaking of AJC, I urge all of you to read about the version of history of how the park was saved from suburban development and has been eyed by much larger interests than disc golf throughout the past 40 years. It would be interesting to read an alternate history though I doubt one exists.

So while it may sound to us an innocuous use of parkland: a 7 acre course in a patch of land they've fought hard to protect against suburban development, you have to at least appreciate that these folks were able to achieve the preservation of the park.

My overall point doesn't differ much from what we proposed at McLaren, or JSP: if disc golfers could volunteer and begin the project by planting native gardens, trees, shrubs, etc, and do the same on existing courses (and do it at scale) then these actions would go a long way towards winning friends, beautifying the landscape, and doing right by the environment.

 

[Matt B.]

They haven't stopped course development, geoblime, only stalled it! The game is clearly expanding and there will be new course built. How and where is the key question. Even Ken and Tom and the others from SMP agree that disc golf deserves a place, they're just a bit misguided where it should be. While I and most folks would personally love to have a course on one of the city's money losing golf courses, that's an entirely new fight in and of itself. Most golf courses would be better disc courses if you could play cross fairway. It could only work on a defunct golf course. That's one possibility, though it is hard to find the right place to make that happen. It would require a team of investors to lease the land and set up the infrastructure for a pay to play.

The other thing to realize is that there are people everywhere who rightfully want a say in land use issues. While SMP has clearly revel themselves as park saviors and spreading the gospel they aren't the main group working against pinto lake or anna jean cummings.

Speaking of AJC, I urge all of you to read about the version of history of how the park was saved from suburban development and has been eyed by much larger interests than disc golf throughout the past 40 years. It would be interesting to read an alternate history though I doubt one exists.

So while it may sound to us an innocuous use of parkland: a 7 acre course in a patch of land they've fought hard to protect against suburban development, you have to at least appreciate that these folks were able to achieve the preservation of the park.

My overall point doesn't differ much from what we proposed at McLaren, or JSP: if disc golfers could volunteer and begin the project by planting native gardens, trees, shrubs, etc, and do the same on existing courses (and do it at scale) then these actions would go a long way towards winning friends, beautifying the landscape, and doing right by the environment.

Hear him!

 

[geoblime]

Peter, I completely agree with the course being stalled. There will be one, just a matter of time and where. What I have a difficult time with is the clear distaste for Disc Golf from SMC but not a word about a 1.5/2 million dollar bike course project. How does that "preserve" the park in it's natural setting? They use this argument all the time. How many trees will be affected by the bike course? Erosion? Why is no one talking about this!?! Seems like an over pay of public funds considering our economic times but a free, volunteer installed disc golf course, never!

The letter to the Half Moon Bay Review is what started this thread off. Let's not forget where this discussion started from. There were many inaccuracies leading to a not so favorable article about Disc Golf...from an activist who has thwarted a course installation in SF. It was a clear attack on Disc Golf as a whole, not just McLaren. A little beyond Nimbyism.

On a lighter note, I've made some friends in Los Altos who know some "higher up" people which might be open to a public Disc Golf course. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Peterb]

The bike skills park is being built on a small 5 acre patch of land that was previously a dumping ground for the nearby sunnydale housing project, which is across the street. There was no habitat value to the land at all, and the bikers are taking a big risk in developing their park so close to the projects. There will be some horrible stuff that goes down there unfortunately. My advice? Forget about McLaren. It isn't worth the trouble.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

They haven't stopped course development, geoblime, only stalled it! The game is clearly expanding and there will be new course built. How and where is the key question. Even Ken and Tom and the others from SMP agree that disc golf deserves a place, they're just a bit misguided where it should be. While I and most folks would personally love to have a course on one of the city's money losing golf courses, that's an entirely new fight in and of itself. Most golf courses would be better disc courses if you could play cross fairway. It could only work on a defunct golf course. That's one possibility, though it is hard to find the right place to make that happen. It would require a team of investors to lease the land and set up the infrastructure for a pay to play.

The other thing to realize is that there are people everywhere who rightfully want a say in land use issues. While SMP has clearly revel themselves as park saviors and spreading the gospel they aren't the main group working against pinto lake or anna jean cummings.

Speaking of AJC, I urge all of you to read about the version of history of how the park was saved from suburban development and has been eyed by much larger interests than disc golf throughout the past 40 years. It would be interesting to read an alternate history though I doubt one exists.

So while it may sound to us an innocuous use of parkland: a 7 acre course in a patch of land they've fought hard to protect against suburban development, you have to at least appreciate that these folks were able to achieve the preservation of the park.

My overall point doesn't differ much from what we proposed at McLaren, or JSP: if disc golfers could volunteer and begin the project by planting native gardens, trees, shrubs, etc, and do the same on existing courses (and do it at scale) then these actions would go a long way towards winning friends, beautifying the landscape, and doing right by the environment.

Saving the park from rich developers trying to build High Density Housing is awesome. What doesn't make any sense is protecting the park from High School students building a Disc Golf course. If you want to preserve and continue the spirit of environmentalism, and love of nature, that caused these neighbors to save this area from becoming condos, let kids build a Disc Golf park there. Then they will become your allies, and protect this land from serious threats for generations to come.

Environmental groups have lost a lot of credibility and support because they have been sucked into these NIMBY causes that are ostensibly about preserving trees, but when you look closer, are often about well-off neighborhoods using their money and free time to avoid shouldering their share of the burden of services to support the communities they live in. What happens in Santa Cruz is any project in a nice neighborhood will eventually fail to NIMBY groups, typically for very thin "environmental" reasons, then they often end up in the poor or industrial areas of town. e.g. in Harvey West or San Lorenzo Park - right next to the San Lorenzo river. The environment certainly doesn't win this way, but the rich folk keep their views.

Disc Golf courses are in demand, and we do need more of them in our communities to meet the demand. Environmentalists should embrace the Disc golf community because in the big picture, Disc Golf is a Smart, Sustainable use of recreational forest land, not a destructive one.

 

[geoblime]

The bike skills park is being built on a small 5 acre patch of land that was previously a dumping ground for the nearby sunnydale housing project, which is across the street. There was no habitat value to the land at all, and the bikers are taking a big risk in developing their park so close to the projects. There will be some horrible stuff that goes down there unfortunately. My advice? Forget about McLaren. It isn't worth the trouble.

I hear ya. Sucks. Seems like an enormous waste (or overpay) of public funds though, which is more disturbing.

Maybe I can get something going in the South Bay, we'll see. You permanently up north now Peter?

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

My brother lives near Santa Cruz. I sent him the link to this thread and the course site, and he's relaying it along to his ultimate club.

Thanks to those that sent emails!

I've heard that Zach Friend has received a lot of email supporting Pinto Lake, but mostly from the 3rd District (Santa Cruz proper), instead of the 2nd District where the course is located.

While Pinto Lake is a County Park that serve the whole community, Zach himself will be more moved by local constituents adding their support. So if you live in the 2nd District, and are reading this, send an email to Zach to support Pinto Lake!

 

[Peterb]

I hear ya. Sucks. Seems like an enormous waste (or overpay) of public funds though, which is more disturbing.

Maybe I can get something going in the South Bay, we'll see. You permanently up north now Peter?

I'm still in Redwood City. My second child will be arriving within the next few weeks so I'm kind of out of the scene. Still very interested in building courses on the peninsula. I recently finished a 9 hole up in sonoma county

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

2) Come to the Parks & Recreation Commission meeting Monday April 15 at 7 PM and show your support for disc golf in Santa Cruz County Parks. The meeting will be held at the Simkin Swim Center, 979 17th Avenue, Santa Cruz, CA 95062 (in Live Oak, Soquel Ave exit from Hwy 1).

Lots of Disc Golfer came out for this! During the Public comment session where you could talk about things not on the agenda, including Pinto Lake DGC, there were about 20 Pro DG people and no "Close the Course" comments. Every time a Pro DGer spoke most of the room was clapping.

There was a great comment from a guy who has lived next to the course all his life, that before the Disc golf course his parents wouldn't let him go there, because it was known to be a gang and homeless hang out. But since the course was put in, he now his kids go there all the time.

Lots of other nice comments were made, from a Pro Woman (Kristy King I think), to the TD of the Masters Cup TJ Goodwin, to Ezra Hapner 11 year old relative of HoFer Marty Hapner.

 

[Peterb]

^^^ good to hear!

 

[Discwrangler]

When the plants and butterflies start paying taxes, they can have a say in what goes on in the park. Until then, it's a PARK paid for by taxes. The park is there for people to recreate.

 

[Matt B.]

When the plants and butterflies start paying taxes, they can have a say in what goes on in the park. Until then, it's a PARK paid for by taxes. The park is there for people to recreate.

The people trying to make a campaign against disc golf based on claims that disc golfers don't care about the environment and the consequences of course impacts thank you for your support.