"Disc Golf Not as Green as it seems"

[BogeyNoMore]

^ well stated.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Lame. I hate blind NIMBYism, especially when it isn't even their neighborhood.

Santa Cruz area is having these issues too.

These people are against a new 9 hole course some local High School Kids want to put in a nearby park:

http://www.friendsofannajeancummingspark.org

They expanded their complaints to Pinto Lake Disc Golf Course in nearby Watsonville. Where the Finals of the 2011 Worlds was played. So the local DG community fought back with their own site.

http://pintolakediscgolf.com

Meanwhile, in my Parents new community, Lompoc, CA, they built a 9 pin course next to my Dad's house and loved it so much, they expanded it to 18.

http://www.lompocrecord.com/news/lo...cle_4b4aa41c-a7b0-11e1-94e5-0019bb2963f4.html

I'm sure every case is different, but for the most part, Disc Golf is an awesome use of recreational, forested land.

 

[KniceZ]

It took awhile to read through the links. A few comments based on the longer letter:

- No reference or source for the rather damning "spread the damage" quote.
- Notice on the first link to the "Friends" web page that while they don't like disc golf they applaud and celebrate a grant to build bike paths - - ever seen how much erosion and destruction bikes cause!!
- Interesting that the arborist's report he doesn't recommend removing the course. One could read his report as saying the yes there's some impact but it's not so bad that it should be shut down.
- So a study of inexperienced Boy Scouts throwing discs leads to the conclusion that trajectories are determined by random forces? The plots are from a model that actually shows a fair number of throws going behind the tee pad??
- Another unreferenced quote from Mickelson. Laced with foul language to create just the right image!
- Is ball golf less destructive to the native environment than DG it certainly takes up over 20 acres? How about a soccer or softball complex, a ski resort, a race track, a pro football stadium, etc, etc!!
- The link about DGer's considering the course their own has not information to back up that claim. It's a bunch information about some people getting hit by discs. Bikers also get hit by cars should we stop building roads?
- Interesting link to "Bang da chains" If this guy thinks that's serious he really has no clue.
- Very few ball and disc golf combinations that I've heard off and most only allow DG in the off season. And it forces the DGers to pay. Oh yeah and several of the La Mesa reviews didn't give it high marks.

While the group has some legitimate concerns they just loose me with all the over the top ranting. It comment that soft handedly implies that a DG course might only marginally be better than a homeless encampment, really shows how they feel about DG.

Don't mean to be rude but Tosco - your name wouldn't happen to be Ken M? Interesting that this was your 1st post.

 

[Jukeshoe]

We should organize a good ol' fashioned letter-writing campaign to the appropriate Senators, Congressional Representatives, State Representatives, Municipal Authorities and general media outlets.

 

[JTacoma03]

this is why i'm glad i don't live in a liberal area... i had fun during my trip to SF but when I saw a teenager get out of a BMW dressed like a bum, walk across the street and sit down next to other teens dressed like bums and start asking for change i knew it was one ****ed up town.

Lol when I lived in Raleigh in 2009 they did a report on panhandlers making 45k annually untaxed...it was on the local news. Dude got done for the day and the news crew followed him home.

It's not just "liberal" towns brah. Not that the triangle is a conservative area anyway...

 

[optidiscic]

I think theres good points in the article
Lets not pretend
I try to keep the area in front of the tee clear of trees on longer holes....the problem is players throwing high speed drivers on short technical holes that should be a mid or putter shot

Erosion is a valid concern....steps should be taken to combat this....steps or even dirt ramps in heavily traversed areas

Shots over big lakes are cool but people wading into lakes and ponds is not so cool

I have dealt with all of these issues and I do my best to mitigate the damage a disc golfer does to the area

What I never understand is why doesnt anyone ever report the environmental impact of a soccer field or a baseball field.....I'd rather have trees with some superficial nicks than a clear cut field where only earth worms live

 

[Lewis]

Hey folks --

I happen to know the author of the letter published in the Half Moon Bay paper and he shared with me the full text of his letter to the paper, including links to all his sources. This is almost twice as long as the letter the paper published. He's clearly does his homework on this topic and he's not making stuff up.

Here's the link: http://bit.ly/10NQL5h

How many ball golf courses are there in the area? Does the author's activist group oppose the installation of ball golf courses with the same energy and commitment, or with even more, considering that ball golf demands so much more land, water, wider clear-cut fairways, chemical lawn treatment, and truly exclusive access to the land used? How is its record of activism against installing baseball fields on local park land? How about soccer fields? If i visit the group's website, will I see similar treatment for other resource-consuming sports? I would hope this group applies their principles consistently to all use of land for recreation, and has not just decided to focus on one sport.

 

[geoblime]

People like this really chap my hide and I feel are very narrow minded. Why aren't they out protesting golf courses, soccer fields, baseball fields, concert halls, bocce ball courts, picnic areas, etc? These all have environmental impacts for the negative. Ball golf courses remove tons of trees and natural habitat, use precious resources to keep them green, and take up as much area as we do, if not more. Soccer fields use heavy machinery to scrape the Earth. I'm sure that feels good. When a dog goes poop, scratches the dirt after...that impacts the environment. Why not take issue with that? Anti-disc golfers always push their agenda without explaining the complete facts. Disc Golf DOES have a negative impact on the environment, just like EVERYTHING else humans do. But it also has a lot of positives.

I live in the Bay Area and play S.F about once a week. When we constructed the temp course and eventually the permanent course there was rampant drug use, homeless encampments, robberies, trash, gang activity, and almost anything else you can image. We removed over 20 bags of trash, including needles, tarps, ropes, burnt wood, plastic everything, and rotting food from just one fairway, hole 12. In the article, he barely acknowledges this. How did all of that impact the environment? Where are the before and after pictures of this area on the website? This was happening all over the park where we built the course...no mention of that. McClaren also has this going on. There's been bodies found, gang activity, drugs, robberies, etc... but we wouldn't want the "horrible Disc Golfers" to come in.

I can't estimate how many people, including families from the area, have told me how safe they feel walking thru the park since the course has been installed. They used to avoid this area at all costs. Now it's a pleasant stroll and share the park well together. How about that impact!?! How about the impact of money being brought to the local businesses around the course? I've personally spoke with numerous local shop owners who are very glad we're there. Why isn't that ever brought up!?!

All the environmentalists talk about the impact on trees, brush, and ground in the area. What they don't talk about is how:
1. This is a MAN MADE PARK. It was never here until loads of sand and dirt were carted in to build the park (mostly sand).
2. Most of the trees and brush are NOT NATIVE. They were brought in and are starting to take over from the plants and trees that ARE native.
3. The areas that are worn away from traffic had no ground coverage to begin with. All the grass was planted by humans. Before that, it was just sand.
4. Sand erodes, period. There are many areas of the park that are eroding badly, because that's what sand/dirt does. Mountain bikers, runners, children, dogs, animals all cause erosion. We are actively working on stopping the erosion in the course. I don't see that effort anywhere else in the park.
5. Golden Gate Park is 1,017 square acres, over 3 miles long, of which the golf course takes maybe 10 to 15 acres. The park includes a Buffalo range (for the Buffalo to roam) which probably takes up 5 acres, an archery range which uses an acre, Polo Fields which probably takes up 10 acres, a ball golf course which is 20+ acres, an Aquarium, Museums, Tea Gardens, and a multitude of other venues using park grounds. Where's the environmental impact of those?
6. I could go on but you get my drift.

The S.F course gets and average of 150+ players a day (at the least) and over a 1,000 people on the weekends. This is all healthy, outdoor family exercise which is at no cost to the city, nor to the players. The local club has spent thousands of hours improving erosion, plant life, tree protection, walkways, cleaning up, education. etc. All thru volunteers. I'm sure the volume of people can be viewed as a negative but I think the positives far out weigh the negatives (of course, spoken from a golfers view).

Now, more than ever, we need activities that promote a healthier outdoor life style which is low cost or no cost to families. With recent technology there has become more of a tendency to be indoors. This trend will continue unless we offer alternatives including disc golf, bocce, soccer, basketball, hiking, etc. Disc Golf shouldn't be excluded from these sports but rather should be considered as a standard activity for outdoors. Along with the heath aspects of Disc Golf, there is also the social aspects of this great sport. I've made life long friends with lawyers, professors, fire men, construction workers, graphic designers, surgical techs, etc. I might not have ever met these great people if not for Disc Golf. It's more than just a game, it's become a way of life.

 

[1978]

I laugh and cry everytime I talk with an environmental conservationalist about what we can and can't do on a dg course, or before building them. I want to grab them by their ears and point to the 4 baseball fields parking lot, tennis, basketball courts, and 3 soccer fields and scream "Ya think they cared about trees over 4" diameter when they made this park 3 MONTHS ago!" Where were you then?

Usually its just people who like knowing they can effect others lives. They can't normally. They can on DG courses, walking paths, bike trails...etc. So they really dig in to validate their existence and "training." ie - Brackets Bluff.

 

[kensanfran]

Ken McGary here, author of the original editorial that seems to have stirred everyone up here. I've been on the road the last few days but am now following up on email and would like to respond to some of the points made in this thread.

First, for all of you who have made personal attacks and spun out wildly stereotypical rants about who I am and what I'm about, I have two things to say...

1. Wildly entertaining!
2. You have no clue.

Now for all of you who have responded to the actual issues, and have admitted that even a few of the points made in my editorial might have some basis in fact, I salute you. You are the future of your sport.

Yes, tosco who posted in this thread earlier is a good friend and helpfully passed on the full editorial I had sent to Half Moon Bay Review since I was traveling and couldn't get around to it myself. I do not live in Half Moon Bay, although I do make it down from time to time for a visit to Fitzgerald Marine Reserve and some of the other incredible natural attractions in the area. Someone passed the original editorial and article along to our Save McLaren Park coordinating committee, and since both were fairly one-sided towards the DG case, there was a general consensus that "someone ought to write a letter to the editor to present another view", so I did. Ultimately it is a decision for those who live there, but they should be aware of both sides of the issue and now they are.

Now to a few specific issues:

I did not read the dudes rant in the paper, I am sure he is a nut, but this discussion should be adjusted based on geography - in most of CA, we get very little rain, and are just about to close the books on a second straight drought year.

Even in non-drought years, we get less than 20 inches of rain, and it all falls in a small window of about 4 months, and native trees take forever, forever, forever, forever to grow.

After 10 years, a local oak or pine is still a juvenile tree at best, etc. So CA does not generate, or re-generate trees very well, so some care should be taken, but that does not mean we should let the whack jobs run off at the mouth and try to ruin everybody's fun, DG gets people outside, away from the damn computers and TVs and should be respected accordingly.

But again, some care should be taken, my local course is looking pretty thrashed, the trees are not in good shape, and it does track back to all the hits they are taking from discs, etc.

Ok, I'll let the nut and whack job comments pass as the rest of this post is right on. Several commenters here have said things like "here in Cedar Rapids we have a hundred DG courses and everything is fine". Well, that's great, but coastal California's environment is a very different beast. Right now I'm in rural Kentucky and there is room for a thousand disc golf courses in this one county without significantly affecting overall plant or animal life. Come on down and knock yourself out!

Conversely, McLaren Park is in the second most population-dense city in the US. Only four percent of our natural areas remain, and they must be shared with almost a million residents. Of course land use decisions are incredibly contentious -- it's the price of living in the Big City. Is San Francisco unique in this aspect? Of course not. In fact there are many other urban areas that have zero disc golf courses within the city limits. I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

However, for local residents to make sound decisions about these issues, they must be well informed about all sides, and in most cases they are not. Unfortunately, a common approach taken by those wanting a new DG course is to come in under the radar, negotiate with the "rec" part of the local rec/park department, and establish "facts on the ground" before a full public airing of the issues has even been hinted at. This is exactly what happened in SF, and in many other cases we've heard about around the country. You can learn more about our experiences here in McLaren Park by review this complete DG timeline.

At the same time, I think there are appropriate places for DG courses in crowded urban areas, primarily on a shared basis with ball golf courses, as I stated at the end of my full editorial. Golf is in a slow, steady decline -- SF, for example, has six municipal courses, all of which are losing the city's coffers million of dollars each year, and it's only getting worse. And of course we need soccer fields and so on as well, but we already have lots of those. In fact more than half of McLaren Park is already filled with tennis courts and swimming pools and soccer fields and so on. The remaining relatively undeveloped natural areas are our last little bits of wildness (notice I did not say wilderness) and many of us are compelled to protect them vociferously. SFRPD did a survey in 2004 and by far the highest need as requested by residents is open space to go hiking, running, and dog-walking -- among all the other activities surveyed (tennis/baseball/soccer/etc) DG did not even rate a mention.

And yes it is true that disc golf gets folks outdoors, but unlike all the other activities we support in our park's remaining natural areas, it is impossible to play disc golf while staying on the trail. So, how is it "green" and "healthy" to get kids and families out to enjoy nature while simultaneously diminishing it? I have two young girls that I take to McLaren every time I get the chance and it is more than enough for them to climb a tree or walk the dog or take a stick and dig for bugs or watch the hawks and other birds soaring above. That's what I am fighting to preserve. And that's what the dozen or so folks on our Coordinating Committee and the thousands of folks who signed our petition and the hundreds of folks who read our newsletters and come to our park events are also dedicated to protecting. When those few acres are gone, there isn't any more.

Thanks for reading,
Ken

 

[zenbot]

Thank you for posting, Ken. I genuinely appreciate that you have sought out the "opposition" in order to offer your side of the story.

 

[cooker]

... in 2004... by far the highest need as requested by residents is open space to go hiking, running, and dog-walking -- among all the other activities surveyed (tennis/baseball/soccer/etc) DG did not even rate a mention.

Disc golf course = open space to go hiking, running, and dog-walking + frisbee throwing safely

 

[DavidSauls]

Thanks for reading,
Ken

Thanks for writing.

 

[AndyJB]

This guy is an absolute tool. He pumps his own constituents with lies and gets them riled up. The McLaren park community meeting was an absolute hornets nest because of this dudes fear mongering tactics.

The one that pisses me off in this particular article is the part about the "Dept. of Urban Forestry" being against us. First off, I've never once seen a member of said department at GGP. Secondly, the SF Parks and Recreation Dept. LOVES us because we actively improve the course by combating erosion, clearing debris, planting grass, spreading mulch, etc. (see the blog!)

This is a case of a man with a personal vendetta beyond reason, and its sickening IMHO.

So he's basically every politician ever? LOL.

We're going through some of the same stuff here, though not to this extent, thanks to a guy who brought a handsaw to an area that hadn't been approved yet for a course and started going to work. Almost killed that course.

Luckily, people have a great degree of common sense when it comes to smaller issues such as this (national and global issues on the other hand...but that's an entirely different conversation) and they tend to see through the fanatics. A lot, if not most, people will listen more intently to moderates than extremists on the local level. I wish you all good luck in dealing with this guy...

His tactics may be extreme, but at least he believes in his cause. Too many times do I see DGers pledge their commitment to a project and then renege on it once the work starts. At least around here.

 

[nwdiscnoob]

In fact there are many other urban areas that have zero disc golf courses within the city limits. I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

And of course we need soccer fields and so on as well,

So all of the cities you mentioned are very high violent crime areas, where gang violence happens in the parks, no really, you have a better chance of being shot in the park than hit with a frisbee. Im not even going to get into the demographics of those cities.

Also why is it we need soccer fields???? They seem to be a whole lot worse than a disc golf course based on your own criteria of natures destruction..clearcut area, lots of fertilizer, flying objects, etc..

 

[harr0140]

Interesting story to follow . . . he is correct in most of what he says . . . unfortunately things can be done to prevent much of the environmental impact but most parks departments are very hands off when it comes to disc golf courses. It is all volunteer efforts . . . much like what Patrick Brown is doing in Golden Gate Park. If the budget had money in place to maintain turf, remove invasive plant species, lay mulch, install drainage, maintain retaining walls and reduce erosion . . . this person opposing disc golf would have very few valid points. This is the reason we will see more pay to play courses and places that can actually make a living in disc golf.

 

[harr0140]

Have you not read a paper, magazine or watched the news lately? It's all unsourced opinion and spin. Why should DG get treated any differently than any other story?

DG is more environmentally friendly than bulldozing everything and building soccer fields that need to be fertilized, mowed and watered, and people don't seem to mind an unlimited amount of those. May e because those are for innocent little kids, and disc golf has a different image???? :\

Excellent points . . .

 

[harr0140]

Ken McGary here, author of the original editorial that seems to have stirred everyone up here. I've been on the road the last few days but am now following up on email and would like to respond to some of the points made in this thread.

First, for all of you who have made personal attacks and spun out wildly stereotypical rants about who I am and what I'm about, I have two things to say...

1. Wildly entertaining!
2. You have no clue.

Now for all of you who have responded to the actual issues, and have admitted that even a few of the points made in my editorial might have some basis in fact, I salute you. You are the future of your sport.

Yes, tosco who posted in this thread earlier is a good friend and helpfully passed on the full editorial I had sent to Half Moon Bay Review since I was traveling and couldn't get around to it myself. I do not live in Half Moon Bay, although I do make it down from time to time for a visit to Fitzgerald Marine Reserve and some of the other incredible natural attractions in the area. Someone passed the original editorial and article along to our Save McLaren Park coordinating committee, and since both were fairly one-sided towards the DG case, there was a general consensus that "someone ought to write a letter to the editor to present another view", so I did. Ultimately it is a decision for those who live there, but they should be aware of both sides of the issue and now they are.

Now to a few specific issues:



Ok, I'll let the nut and whack job comments pass as the rest of this post is right on. Several commenters here have said things like "here in Cedar Rapids we have a hundred DG courses and everything is fine". Well, that's great, but coastal California's environment is a very different beast. Right now I'm in rural Kentucky and there is room for a thousand disc golf courses in this one county without significantly affecting overall plant or animal life. Come on down and knock yourself out!

Conversely, McLaren Park is in the second most population-dense city in the US. Only four percent of our natural areas remain, and they must be shared with almost a million residents. Of course land use decisions are incredibly contentious -- it's the price of living in the Big City. Is San Francisco unique in this aspect? Of course not. In fact there are many other urban areas that have zero disc golf courses within the city limits. I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

However, for local residents to make sound decisions about these issues, they must be well informed about all sides, and in most cases they are not. Unfortunately, a common approach taken by those wanting a new DG course is to come in under the radar, negotiate with the "rec" part of the local rec/park department, and establish "facts on the ground" before a full public airing of the issues has even been hinted at. This is exactly what happened in SF, and in many other cases we've heard about around the country. You can learn more about our experiences here in McLaren Park by review this complete DG timeline.

At the same time, I think there are appropriate places for DG courses in crowded urban areas, primarily on a shared basis with ball golf courses, as I stated at the end of my full editorial. Golf is in a slow, steady decline -- SF, for example, has six municipal courses, all of which are losing the city's coffers million of dollars each year, and it's only getting worse. And of course we need soccer fields and so on as well, but we already have lots of those. In fact more than half of McLaren Park is already filled with tennis courts and swimming pools and soccer fields and so on. The remaining relatively undeveloped natural areas are our last little bits of wildness (notice I did not say wilderness) and many of us are compelled to protect them vociferously. SFRPD did a survey in 2004 and by far the highest need as requested by residents is open space to go hiking, running, and dog-walking -- among all the other activities surveyed (tennis/baseball/soccer/etc) DG did not even rate a mention.

And yes it is true that disc golf gets folks outdoors, but unlike all the other activities we support in our park's remaining natural areas, it is impossible to play disc golf while staying on the trail. So, how is it "green" and "healthy" to get kids and families out to enjoy nature while simultaneously diminishing it? I have two young girls that I take to McLaren every time I get the chance and it is more than enough for them to climb a tree or walk the dog or take a stick and dig for bugs or watch the hawks and other birds soaring above. That's what I am fighting to preserve. And that's what the dozen or so folks on our Coordinating Committee and the thousands of folks who signed our petition and the hundreds of folks who read our newsletters and come to our park events are also dedicated to protecting. When those few acres are gone, there isn't any more.

Thanks for reading,
Ken

The most sustainable thing in the world is adding disc golf to a golf course or other property that is already maintained . . . it takes almost no additional maintenance, it can bring people in when there are vacancies in the teesheet . . . and that is why I am promoting to golf courses as we speak. I got one to sign up for a tournament this fall just 3 days ago and another one is very interested.

It helps I have a 20 year career in lawn/landscape maintenance including 10 years working on golf courses.

 

[BrotherDave]

First off, the only thing that would be truly "green" is to eliminate people from the planet. Compared to other outside activities, DG is by far and away on the short list of ones that are least damaging to nature. Even still, I've probably seen more damage to trees and vegetation done in parks by small children just playing than by actual disc golfers.

The main point of contention seems to be that the area's habitat takes forever to grow trees so discs hitting them would do more damage than other parts of the country. This is a pretty easy fix that is still much cheaper than building/maintaining other sports facilities, just place protecting materials on the business side of the trees on the fairway that will absorb/deflect discs. Good design like not putting tees within 100' or so of trees so can also help reduce tree hit impact and numbers. In other words, it's not written in stone that DG has to be damaging to trees, brushes, etc.

Can disc golfers do a better job of being better stewards of their courses? Absolutely, people in general are ignorant, lazy, selfish, and responsibility shirking a-holes that litter and take public spaces for granted. But we shouldn't place the blame on disc golf, we should blame ourselves whenever a wild space is corrupted regardless of if it's due to a DG course, a dog-walking trail, baseball field, or a new Wal-Mart.

 

[turbosteve]

Conversely, McLaren Park is in the second most population-dense city in the US. Only four percent of our natural areas remain, and they must be shared with almost a million residents. Of course land use decisions are incredibly contentious -- it's the price of living in the Big City. Is San Francisco unique in this aspect? Of course not. In fact there are many other urban areas that have zero disc golf courses within the city limits. I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

Maybe you should have double checked your spreadsheet before posting because there is a disc golf course on public land in Atlanta. There is also a course in Brooklyn but it does not have baskets. There is also a 9 hole course at the Illinois Institute of Technology that is open to the public in Chicago.