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"Disc Golf Not as Green as it seems"

I think that a McLaren course would get far less use than GGP.

Yet the GGP course is so crowded you need a second course in town, and the sport is growing fast. You can't have it both ways, Peter.

Ken
 
In the local controversy, DGers like to use the term "frisbee golf" when speaking with the public, as this gives the idea that it's just a couple of college kids bumming around on a sunny afternoon. Public demonstrations typically involve setting up a basket and putting from a few feet away -- what's so horrible about that? Meanwhile, if I called any of you "frisbee golfers" to your face, you would take offense. Do you see what I'm getting at here? I use terms like "discs flying at highway speeds" because it is a) technically accurate, and give a better sense of the real speed, which DGers don't want to fess up to with the general public, and B) because it is much of the source of environmental damage, at least on the GGP course.
Actually, its not all of that uncommon for disc golfers anywhere to use the term "frisbee golf" when speaking to non-players, because for whatever reason, that's the term that the media has already put into their minds. When introducing people to the sport, its not all that important to get them using the correct nomenclature. If they pick up the sport, they'll get the distinction eventually.

Well, that, and if you don't enunciate well, the word 'disc' sounds like something else.

FWIW, I have played numerous courses that have been in the ground for 25+ years, have trees on them in the line of fire that have taken probably thousands of "discs flying at highway speeds" impacts, and are doing just fine.
 
I think that a McLaren course would get far less use than GGP.

Yet the GGP course is so crowded you need a second course in town, and the sport is growing fast. You can't have it both ways, Peter.

Ken

If we had a second course at McLaren, it would take some of the pressure off GGP. However, I simply do not believe that it would get the same usage as a course in the most used park in the city.
 
Ok Ken, time to ask you these specific questions:

1) will you accept a solution that includes a 9 hole course in McLaren?
2) will you stop trying to block the development of courses in the region?
 
And besides, how are you going to have any fundraising tournements to pay for all this construction without an 18-hole course?

OK, getting on my non-carbon-offset jetplane to get back to my ivy-infested drug den homeless encampment of a park.

Later,
Ken
 
And besides, how are you going to have any fundraising tournements to pay for all this construction without an 18-hole course?

We have a course and it isn't going anywhere.


OK, getting on my non-carbon-offset jetplane to get back to my ivy-infested drug den homeless encampment of a park.

Later,
Ken

Notice the 'my' in this whole conversation...
 
Hard on the environment? What human endeavor isn't? Parks are there for the recreation of all right? A simple swing set in a park causes erosion under the swing as does a slide or whatever, but see where that argument goes if that was being considered for park space. And the erosion and plant damage is directly related to the course's popularity. What if the gave a war and noboby came?

A very similar thing happened here a little over a year ago. 1 guy, just 1 guy put up such a stink about a course that the County pulled the plug. What makes this even more tragic was the political nature of the situation. The course was just newly installed with full approval of the County government from the top down. So completely funded and installed by our local dg organization an absolute monster of a course was built. But before there was even a Grand Opening a change in the County Executive and on down to the parks department occurred. A flaw in the paperwork was discovered and the already installed course was pulled. And this after a great rapport with the County for literally decades.

I feel your pain and hopefully cooler heads and common sense prevails in your situation.
 
Ken McGary here, author of the original editorial that seems to have stirred everyone up here. I've been on the road the last few days but am now following up on email and would like to respond to some of the points made in this thread.

First, for all of you who have made personal attacks and spun out wildly stereotypical rants about who I am and what I'm about, I have two things to say...

1. Wildly entertaining!
2. You have no clue.

Now for all of you who have responded to the actual issues, and have admitted that even a few of the points made in my editorial might have some basis in fact, I salute you. You are the future of your sport.

Yes, tosco who posted in this thread earlier is a good friend and helpfully passed on the full editorial I had sent to Half Moon Bay Review since I was traveling and couldn't get around to it myself. I do not live in Half Moon Bay, although I do make it down from time to time for a visit to Fitzgerald Marine Reserve and some of the other incredible natural attractions in the area. Someone passed the original editorial and article along to our Save McLaren Park coordinating committee, and since both were fairly one-sided towards the DG case, there was a general consensus that "someone ought to write a letter to the editor to present another view", so I did. Ultimately it is a decision for those who live there, but they should be aware of both sides of the issue and now they are.

Now to a few specific issues:



Ok, I'll let the nut and whack job comments pass as the rest of this post is right on. Several commenters here have said things like "here in Cedar Rapids we have a hundred DG courses and everything is fine". Well, that's great, but coastal California's environment is a very different beast. Right now I'm in rural Kentucky and there is room for a thousand disc golf courses in this one county without significantly affecting overall plant or animal life. Come on down and knock yourself out!

Conversely, McLaren Park is in the second most population-dense city in the US. Only four percent of our natural areas remain, and they must be shared with almost a million residents. Of course land use decisions are incredibly contentious -- it's the price of living in the Big City. Is San Francisco unique in this aspect? Of course not. In fact there are many other urban areas that have zero disc golf courses within the city limits. I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

However, for local residents to make sound decisions about these issues, they must be well informed about all sides, and in most cases they are not. Unfortunately, a common approach taken by those wanting a new DG course is to come in under the radar, negotiate with the "rec" part of the local rec/park department, and establish "facts on the ground" before a full public airing of the issues has even been hinted at. This is exactly what happened in SF, and in many other cases we've heard about around the country. You can learn more about our experiences here in McLaren Park by review this complete DG timeline.

At the same time, I think there are appropriate places for DG courses in crowded urban areas, primarily on a shared basis with ball golf courses, as I stated at the end of my full editorial. Golf is in a slow, steady decline -- SF, for example, has six municipal courses, all of which are losing the city's coffers million of dollars each year, and it's only getting worse. And of course we need soccer fields and so on as well, but we already have lots of those. In fact more than half of McLaren Park is already filled with tennis courts and swimming pools and soccer fields and so on. The remaining relatively undeveloped natural areas are our last little bits of wildness (notice I did not say wilderness) and many of us are compelled to protect them vociferously. SFRPD did a survey in 2004 and by far the highest need as requested by residents is open space to go hiking, running, and dog-walking -- among all the other activities surveyed (tennis/baseball/soccer/etc) DG did not even rate a mention.

And yes it is true that disc golf gets folks outdoors, but unlike all the other activities we support in our park's remaining natural areas, it is impossible to play disc golf while staying on the trail. So, how is it "green" and "healthy" to get kids and families out to enjoy nature while simultaneously diminishing it? I have two young girls that I take to McLaren every time I get the chance and it is more than enough for them to climb a tree or walk the dog or take a stick and dig for bugs or watch the hawks and other birds soaring above. That's what I am fighting to preserve. And that's what the dozen or so folks on our Coordinating Committee and the thousands of folks who signed our petition and the hundreds of folks who read our newsletters and come to our park events are also dedicated to protecting. When those few acres are gone, there isn't any more.

Thanks for reading,
Ken

Your daughters climbing on trees and digging holes for bugs is doing as much damage as disc golfers do. Get over yourself.
 
Man i heard that SF was full of douches, now i can see it in action! My suggestion - start a youth disc golf club/organization, get some kids out playing, take some pictures and get the soccer moms on the DG side. If Ken is gathering up the douche crowd to fight for him then you've got to counter attack with a soccer mom army.
 
Man i heard that SF was full of douches, now i can see it in action! My suggestion - start a youth disc golf club/organization, get some kids out playing, take some pictures and get the soccer moms on the DG side. If Ken is gathering up the douche crowd to fight for him then you've got to counter attack with a soccer mom army.

Plenty of kids already come out and play. A youth league would be really cool though. Great idea!
 
City puts in hundreds of courts and fields while destroying all of the wildness Ken loves yet he does nothing.

Disc golfers put in a course that leaves most of the trees standing and Ken incites a hippie riot.

Somebody contact Michael Savage, let's get his take on this.
 
Peter and Ken. You really seem to know each other a little to well. You both need to sit down and try to work something out. A disc golf web forum is not the place to settle personal vandettas. One, ken, your website does you no favors when trying to convince people here. It would be like Peter going to one of your meetings with disc and broken tree branches in hand, explaining why disc golf isn't intrusive. (I do not believe its any worse then any other activities. I have played courses for years with very little to no damages seen to trees, and I know I hit them all the time). I've seen Peter offer a truce 2 times now and you ignore it and then go back to your own agenda. Your site is very one sided and is the reason I have been so defensive. The picture of the guy hit by the disc with its little comment underneath is cheap. Injuries will happen no matter what is put in. I've seen cyclist hit pedistrians at a park, I've seen dogs almost rip hands off at parks. Where are those pictures. 2) Peter it sucks, but maybe give up the hope of working on the other park location and see if there is an area that people can both agree upon. We don't ways get our choice of land. And it does seem that maybe the larks depatment may of tried to slip the course in without anyone knowing. I do understand the anger from the locals about that. I am however surprised that sf only has one course, as I live with 15 minutes of 5 great courses here in Fort Worth, and like 20 total in a thirty minute drive. 3) why don't y'all both just sit down and have a beer together. Y'all both are passionate about your beliefs, maybe even a little to passionate. Maybe you both will realize you have some ideas in common.
 
Hah! My course literally doesn't even have trashcans, and it's been established for over a year. The city built the course and pads, and Academy bought the baskets. I think the city expected the local club to provide something, and the club expects the city to provide more. In the meantime, the trash is everywhere! great...
 
Also as for disc golf vs frisbee golf. It's not that we are hiding anything like you make it sound on your site. The words are interchanglable. Mostly because the game was started with frisbee's years ago. So some of the older population still calls it that. Plus several times when I have told people what I play they look at me funny, when I tell them it's frisbee golf (or even frolf thanks sinfield) the light clicks. You also have the obvious typo mistakes with disc golf. I know first hand. Our local paper ran an article about the new local dick golf course. Also the name varies by location. It's like calling a beer a pint or a brew depending on what area of the country you are from
 
Peter and Ken. You really seem to know each other a little to well. You both need to sit down and try to work something out. A disc golf web forum is not the place to settle personal vandettas. One, ken, your website does you no favors when trying to convince people here. It would be like Peter going to one of your meetings with disc and broken tree branches in hand, explaining why disc golf isn't intrusive. (I do not believe its any worse then any other activities. I have played courses for years with very little to no damages seen to trees, and I know I hit them all the time). I've seen Peter offer a truce 2 times now and you ignore it and then go back to your own agenda. Your site is very one sided and is the reason I have been so defensive. The picture of the guy hit by the disc with its little comment underneath is cheap. Injuries will happen no matter what is put in. I've seen cyclist hit pedistrians at a park, I've seen dogs almost rip hands off at parks. Where are those pictures. 2) Peter it sucks, but maybe give up the hope of working on the other park location and see if there is an area that people can both agree upon. We don't ways get our choice of land. And it does seem that maybe the larks depatment may of tried to slip the course in without anyone knowing. I do understand the anger from the locals about that. I am however surprised that sf only has one course, as I live with 15 minutes of 5 great courses here in Fort Worth, and like 20 total in a thirty minute drive. 3) why don't y'all both just sit down and have a beer together. Y'all both are passionate about your beliefs, maybe even a little to passionate. Maybe you both will realize you have some ideas in common.

I don't have a personal vendetta and would be happy to have a beer. My prior experience with SMP is unfortunately not a good one, as I have been personally threatened for my worldview. I wouldn't expect anything to be different now.
 
Going out soon to visit my brother in Santa Cruz. Totally bummed that there's a dearth of courses in the area. California's way behind the times. Now, the other outlet we have for hosting courses here are churches. Many have lots of land, and use our league nights to cook us hot dogs and pass out a pamphlet or two or something. Part of their "outreach" ministry. Not sure on the conversion rate, but we appreciate the effort, for sure.
 
Wait... This park is 300+ acres? Really hard to believe a 300+ acre park can't be shared.

Ken, I'm about to graduate from Oregon State University with a degree in Environmental Sciences, and your arguments are incredibly flawed. It really is a shame that close-minded people like yourself refuse to share a park that massive with everyone, and instead pull a hissy-fit until you get everything your way. Grow up.
 
Of all the environmental issues to crusade over, stopping a DG course is pretty pathetic. Why doesn't Ken better spend his time contributing to protecting the rainforests from being raped by corporations or similar venture?
 
Peter - thanks for coming on and exposing how off this Ken guy is.

I wanted to earlier in the thread, but had hoped you'd set it straight with the firsthand account.

Man i heard that SF was full of douches, now i can see it in action! My suggestion - start a youth disc golf club/organization, get some kids out playing, take some pictures and get the soccer moms on the DG side. If Ken is gathering up the douche crowd to fight for him then you've got to counter attack with a soccer mom army.

I'll be honest with you (and anyone else with a similar emotional reaction) - there are tons of douches who have nothing better to do than protest something or join a movement (Occupy, anyone?) just because they're bored or they get off to it. The SMP group is a prime example of people who want to make everything a fight instead of work something out for the good of everybody.

That said, there is another side of SF, especially in regards to disc golf that is an absolute blast to be around. Don't let this sort of crap jade you to how things are done out here. I lived in NC, learned to play there actually, and I can tell you the biggest difference in our communities is the style of courses, lol.
 
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