biscoe
* Ace Member *
Should never have been changed. One of the worst moves ever by the RC/Board.
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Disc Golf Rule Nazi Stories
- Thread starter Harrishabitat
- Start date
- Status
Should never have been changed. One of the worst moves ever by the RC/Board.
ScottyLove
Double Eagle Member
Terrible solution of "let's just stop requiring it."
Apply the penalty a few times and folks will get the message. Never turned in a ball golf card with initials and was shocked when I found out I didn't have to in disc golf. If they take of before initialing it, they get a penalty. No delays necessary.
What did the initials accomplish? I've dealt with plenty of erroneous scorecards since then; in every case the player checked his card (but got it wrong), or accepted the card being turned in without checking it himself. His initials wouldn't have changed anything.
I liked the ritual of initialing card, but that's all it seemed to be.
I liked the ritual of initialing card, but that's all it seemed to be.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
The current rule that does not require a sig is simply more functional for running an event. In the past, buddies on the card would hold off turning it in until getting a hold of the one who didn't sign until the 25 minutes deadline and even then might initial the card for him. TDs have to check the scores on the card anyway so there's really no reason to require signatures. It's to the advantage of the player to make sure they checked the card.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Forces player to be accountable for their own lameness. I have penalized any number of players whose response was "so and so counted it, not me". There were definitely fewer incorrect cards turned in prior to the rule change.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Ah, so that's why those unofficial ratings sometimes seem out of whack in your area. I hate seeing those non-throwing penalties in scores. 
WhiteyBear
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2012
- Messages
- 878
That's because, generally speaking, shotgun tournaments aren't very conducive to that methodology. Having the score table by 18, and doing tee-times, really helps that cause.
That, and laziness/forgetfulness on the players part. Some might disagree, but finalizing/turning in a scorecard is a part of the professionalism of golf. In golf, you and your marker must initial the final score. Penalties in golf can be far more severe than disc golf.
As a DG TD, personally, that rate of correct scores with a signature is just as much as incorrect scores without a signature. So to me, it's just laziness, or inability to tabulate a correct score.
All initialing really does is eliminate the "I never saw my card before it was turned in" excuse for an incorrect score. As someone alluded to earlier, getting penalized even just once usually ensures players won't make that mistake again.
Personally, I'm a fan of requiring that scorecards be turned in as a group rather than simply turned in by someone (who sometimes isn't even a player on the card). If every player in the group has to make the walk up to tourney central to hand in the card, there's a lot less chance of "I never saw the card" excuses, there's no chance of someone pocketing it and heading out to lunch before turning it in, AND it removes any opportunity for a player to pencil-whip his or someone else's scores (like the woman in Europe who was recently suspended by the PDGA).
Turning in the card should be part and parcel of playing a tournament round. It drives me nuts when players in my group bolt off the course after the last putts are in like they're late for something and leave one or two people standing with the card to do all the math. I know I've been tempted more than once to leave a player's total blank because they were so disgusted with their play or in such a hurry to run off and shotgun a couple beers or toke a bowl at lunch that they couldn't be bothered to check or add their scores themselves.
Personally, I'm a fan of requiring that scorecards be turned in as a group rather than simply turned in by someone (who sometimes isn't even a player on the card). If every player in the group has to make the walk up to tourney central to hand in the card, there's a lot less chance of "I never saw the card" excuses, there's no chance of someone pocketing it and heading out to lunch before turning it in, AND it removes any opportunity for a player to pencil-whip his or someone else's scores (like the woman in Europe who was recently suspended by the PDGA).
Turning in the card should be part and parcel of playing a tournament round. It drives me nuts when players in my group bolt off the course after the last putts are in like they're late for something and leave one or two people standing with the card to do all the math. I know I've been tempted more than once to leave a player's total blank because they were so disgusted with their play or in such a hurry to run off and shotgun a couple beers or toke a bowl at lunch that they couldn't be bothered to check or add their scores themselves.
i dont know if anyone has mentioned this but electronic submittals where the td runs a tourney using a phone app to record and submit scores will make it impossible to sign a scorecard.
I don't see many tournaments going that route anytime soon. Paper cards are going to remain the norm for a long time still, IMO.
As I TD, my answer is, "Why not?". No one's yet told me the rest of the group ran off with the card and wouldn't let him look at it.
I'm not sure the benefit would be worth the cost.
I agree that I hate to see someone run off without checking the math. But once the math has been done, there's little reason to have an entire group carry the card to HQ, especially in places where one's car is nearby but the HQ is a long walk. Let one trustworthy person do it. Or two, if you're worried that he'll pocket it and forget, or pencil-whip the others.
Oh, I know that 99% of the time when a player "didn't see the card", it's because they walked off without trying to get a look at it first. But that doesn't stop them from using it as an excuse to get out of a penalty (not that it would work anyway).
As for the long walks to tourney central...I say tough nuts. If everyone has to do it, everyone has to do it so there's nothing objectively unfair about it. To me, it's about personal responsibility. It shouldn't be viewed as an inconvenience to turn your card in. I kinda see sending the card in with one guy as the same as having one guy walk to the basket and pick up your gimme instead of going to drop it in yourself. You have to putt everything out, you have to turn your own card in.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I think the key point here pertains to shotgun versus tee time rounds. I could see requiring turning in your card for tee time rounds since players would all be coming off a hole near tournament central where they likely parked. But it doesn't make sense as a requirement (versus good idea) for shotgun rounds when many courses have ending points far from HQ and players either have to hike back or drive back.
Sir Puttsalot
Par Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2012
- Messages
- 162
Eh, beyond being just a formality, signatures of some sort are pretty much a standard practice of due diligence when pertaining to anything worth a snot.
Some folks will always be careless (even in signing stuff) as they probably have the least to lose and simply do not care. But others that do care, and are most likely accurate to begin with, will probably be either indifferent or favorable towards required signatures.
That's just imo...
I've played shotgun tournaments that required the whole group to be present to turn in the card. It wasn't that much of an inconvenience even though the outlying holes required a bit of a hike. Tourney central was right next to the parking lot where 100% of the cars were located at the start/end of the day. Those that did happen to drive out to their starting holes simply drove back to the TC parking lot to turn in their card before going off to lunch or their hotel or home or whatever. Minor inconvenience, major improvement in promptness of cards being turned in since everyone just wanted to get the card in ASAP and move on. Oh, and zero instances of misadded scores (108 players X 3 rounds).
"Minor" is in the eyes of he who's being inconvenienced.
What "zero" chance of misadded scores? If a group checks a card, and one person delivers it to HQ, it can be wrong. If 4 people deliver it, it's not any different.
Where the parking lot is near the HQ, it's less an issue than when players are parking near their starting holes or, on courses I can name, parking lot isn't particularly near the HQ.
Advantage of group returning card: avoiding the pocketed card, or pencil-whipping. In my experience these have been so rare, that requiring the entire group to deliver the card would be overkill. If players---who are most affected---cared that much, they could do it without a rule.
I guess my point of view is that if it truly is an inconvenience to walk the card to tournament central, why should only one player be burdened with it? Because he happened to be the last guy with the card in hand when everyone else scattered? Because he's too nice a guy to suggest someone else take it instead? Or my personal favorite, because he was the first player listed for that group and had already had the responsibility of bringing the card from tourney central? Seems to me the fair thing would be to have everyone take the walk.
Another benefit would be if the TD has a message to pass to all players, such as the estimated start time for the next round. If everyone has to come back to tourney central with their card, then no one has an excuse for not knowing when the next round begins.
As for the zero chance of misadded scores, perhaps I'm giving too much credit to the notion that traveling back as a group would give them time to review the card thoroughly rather than give it a cursory check then run off to who knows where at the end of the round.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Ah, so that's why those unofficial ratings sometimes seem out of whack in your area. I hate seeing those non-throwing penalties in scores.
they ought to be factored in- stupidity is a component of the game like anything else.
ScottyLove
Double Eagle Member
Perhaps the best solution is what the bigger tournaments do... one scorecard per player. No excuses because you turn in your own card.
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