Disc golf sidearm vs Baseball sidearm

[Moify]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that they're on a mound as well? That's partially where pitchers get some of their momentum, too. I'm sure there's a crap ton of mechanical differences as far as wrist positioning and motion are concerned, but I'm still not sure precisely why extending the arm so far doesn't work with a FH throw like it does in sidearm/submarine pitching.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Pitchers throw sidearm with elbow out to encourage an unpredictable flight path. That's not the intent of a disc golf shot. Throw like a catcher throwing down to second. They have good form intended to create a predictable flight path. Just alter the throwing plane to put the disc flat.

 

[Jax11]

Almost none of this applies to a submarine pitch.

You keep bringing submarine pitchers into the mix... Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about side-arm pitchers, not necessarily submarine pitchers.

All of my comparisons were drawn comparing to side arm pitchers, and I like to think 14 years of baseball experience with 95% of that being in pitching and catching I know what I am talking about. Watch your videos again, all the pitchers end with their hand facing mostly downward. Unless it just magically finishes like that, they have to roll their wrist over. Its part of a natural side-arm submarine motion. You can throw a disc like that but it introduces OAT.

Another thing I have thought about that relates to both submarine and side-arm pitching compared to a side-arm disc throw is that the pivot point from the object and the thrower is very different.

With a baseball throw your main pivot point is your wrist. Your hand is actually behind the object propelling it forward.

With a disc golf throw, your main pivot point is off your fingers. The object is off to the side of your hand and your hand is never fully behind it.

 

[Rockwell]

I can actually throw a distance forehand farther than a distance backhand (550ish) And I find that when I'm doing this type of shot my elbow is much farther out and my motion looks more like a sidearm pitcher, because I am getting my whole body into it (legs, core, shoulder).

However, if I am throwing a forehand shot during a round, I use a much more traditional elbow-in motion (except for annys) that gives more control.

So perhaps we can learn from pitchers if we are going strictly for speed and distance on a disc. However, these shots are rarely needed and a player would benefit much more from a controlled, more compact motion. (and this compact motion still allows for great distances to be acheived....)

 

[sidewinder22]

You keep bringing submarine pitchers into the mix... Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about side-arm pitchers, not necessarily submarine pitchers.

All of my comparisons were drawn comparing to side arm pitchers, and I like to think 14 years of baseball experience with 95% of that being in pitching and catching I know what I am talking about. Watch your videos again, all the pitchers end with their hand facing mostly downward. Unless it just magically finishes like that, they have to roll their wrist over. Its part of a natural side-arm submarine motion. You can throw a disc like that but it introduces OAT.

Another thing I have thought about that relates to both submarine and side-arm pitching compared to a side-arm disc throw is that the pivot point from the object and the thrower is very different.

With a baseball throw your main pivot point is your wrist. Your hand is actually behind the object propelling it forward.

With a disc golf throw, your main pivot point is off your fingers. The object is off to the side of your hand and your hand is never fully behind it.

The OP was about submarine pitchers. I was a submarine pitcher so I also know what I speak of. If you watch those vids again the palm finishes perpendicular to the ground, that's not roll over, that's neutral. If you keep the palm facing up, it ends up being more of push than a snap. Try snapping your wrist forward with your palm up. I keep the palm neutral or perpendicular to the ground. The pivot point is the same with a disc except you use more thumb and the hand is still leveraged from behind the disc's momentum.

 

[Pwingles]

Im not debating this for either side but, has anyone given thought to the fact the mechanics are slightly different because of where the center of mass for the object beig thrown in either case is different? It would require different mechanics alltogether.

Yes the overall purpose is to throw the ball/disc. But the shoulder/elbow/wrist are slightly different due to what theyre throwing. You could mimic the effects but not using the EXACT same throw.

Pitchers throw with different grips much like dg'ers. Those offer different advantages sometimes, sometimes it offers different hinderences, so id say the more accurate way to compare these would be to a certain pitch that utilizes a grip that is more in tune with the weight distribution of a disc relative to how its being thrown.

 

[Notrepidation]

Something that has helped me a TON is that I used to pitch in HS and College. I threw something I made up as a kid...a sidearm knuckle and a sidearm curve. The knuckle was sick but does not translate into DG much. But the sidearm curve really helps me make sure I keep my palm up at and after release. Take a baseball...throw is sidearm and twist it like a curveball. Now grab a disk and you will see that the throw and release is the same. I found out QUICKLY that doing this with an extremely overstable disk results in bad things. But, do it with anything from slightly overstable to understable and, for me at least, it's golden.

It has been said before many times in this thread but it is painfully obvious to me that one of the key factors to throwing a sidearm well is insuring the elbow is leading. Fortunately for me this comes naturally as I have pitched since I was a kid. It may not be something that comes easily, but it is certainly attainable with practice.

 

[deBebbler]

a baseball throw may need more power because the ball has no 'inherent' flight characteristics of its own the way a disc does, which creates lift, movement, etc.

This is how I've always understood it.

i don't know how arm speed and the speed of the projectile compare between baseball and disc golf. maybe someone could elaborate on that.

Few pitchers will generate much of their available pitching power when they pitch without their windup, while DGers can achieve long distances while they throw standing still.

The mechanics are totally different. Pitchers must generate tons of speed with their arm strength (and the further you keep the ball away from your body, the faster it travels as you bring your arm around), while DGers are all about late acceleration and the hit, in order to get the disc spinning fast enough for the discs natural flight characteristics to affect the flight.

So long as the disc is spinning fast enough, it will fly far. Usually we are most effective distance-wise when we are throwing 75-85% power with great snap, and failing when we "strong arm it". Where as, a change-up, often ends up in the dirt.

That's ok, though, as the whole point of pitching is to keep it from being hit well, not flying well itself...

It's just apples and oranges anyway you look at it, imo. My bro is a baseball guru (ump, coach, longtime player) and he always says that he had to unlearn everything he was taught about baseball in order to DG well, because it is the complete opposite of baseball.

i.e. baseball elbow out, DG elbow in.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is how I've always understood it.



Few pitchers will generate much of their available pitching power when they pitch without their windup, while DGers can achieve long distances while they throw standing still.

The mechanics are totally different. Pitchers must generate tons of speed with their arm strength (and the further you keep the ball away from your body, the faster it travels as you bring your arm around), while DGers are all about late acceleration and the hit, in order to get the disc spinning fast enough for the discs natural flight characteristics to affect the flight.

So long as the disc is spinning fast enough, it will fly far. Usually we are most effective distance-wise when we are throwing 75-85% power with great snap, and failing when we "strong arm it". Where as, a change-up, often ends up in the dirt.

That's ok, though, as the whole point of pitching is to keep it from being hit well, not flying well itself...

It's just apples and oranges anyway you look at it, imo. My bro is a baseball guru (ump, coach, longtime player) and he always says that he had to unlearn everything he was taught about baseball in order to DG well, because it is the complete opposite of baseball.

i.e. baseball elbow out, DG elbow in.

I think Nolan Ryan would strongly disagree with you and your brother's statements, I know I do. Sequencing is exactly the same. The problem most pitchers face is getting over the overhand delivery and making it submarine for disc golf. Shortened backswing helps more in disc golf for accuracy since the disc has planes although there is more distance potential in a full wind up as well.

 

[Notrepidation]

This is how I've always understood it.



Few pitchers will generate much of their available pitching power when they pitch without their windup, while DGers can achieve long distances while they throw standing still.

The mechanics are totally different. Pitchers must generate tons of speed with their arm strength (and the further you keep the ball away from your body, the faster it travels as you bring your arm around), while DGers are all about late acceleration and the hit, in order to get the disc spinning fast enough for the discs natural flight characteristics to affect the flight.

So long as the disc is spinning fast enough, it will fly far. Usually we are most effective distance-wise when we are throwing 75-85% power with great snap, and failing when we "strong arm it". Where as, a change-up, often ends up in the dirt.

That's ok, though, as the whole point of pitching is to keep it from being hit well, not flying well itself...

It's just apples and oranges anyway you look at it, imo. My bro is a baseball guru (ump, coach, longtime player) and he always says that he had to unlearn everything he was taught about baseball in order to DG well, because it is the complete opposite of baseball.

i.e. baseball elbow out, DG elbow in.

Ya, I completely disagree as well. At least for me. I absolutely do NOT have to unlearn everything I learned in baseball. Quite the opposite. It helps that I threw a ton of sidearm in baseball...but the mechanics of the throw are the same. And if I am being honest.....not to beat a dead horse as I know it has been discussed already in this thread....but I am not certain that you MUST have the elbow tucked in either. I understand what your saying.....having the elbow in generates a lot of spin and works as a lever. I get that. But having the elbow extended a little....not completely tucked, and using almost a typical sub or sidearm baseball throw can be effective as well. At least that has been my experience.

 

[Menacewarf]

Ya, I completely disagree as well. At least for me. I absolutely do NOT have to unlearn everything I learned in baseball. Quite the opposite. It helps that I threw a ton of sidearm in baseball...but the mechanics of the throw are the same. And if I am being honest.....not to beat a dead horse as I know it has been discussed already in this thread....but I am not certain that you MUST have the elbow tucked in either. I understand what your saying.....having the elbow in generates a lot of spin and works as a lever. I get that. But having the elbow extended a little....not completely tucked, and using almost a typical sub or sidearm baseball throw can be effective as well. At least that has been my experience.

Isn't that elbow more extended the idea of the feldberg /euro style backhand? A different variant of leverage.

 

[deBebbler]

....but I am not certain that you MUST have the elbow tucked in either. I understand what your saying.....having the elbow in generates a lot of spin and works as a lever. I get that. But having the elbow extended a little....not completely tucked...can be effective as well. At least that has been my experience.

I wasn't meaning to imply that the elbow MUST be tucked, because I have seen many a player crush a FH drive without tucking the elbow. I meant that players who are attempting to FH generally throw better when attempting to keep the elbow in (aka not completely tucked.)

I should have been clearer. My bad.

And as far as what my bro said, it just was his experience, and he was primarily a catcher with a little shortstop in LL, so maybe not being a pitcher had something to do with it.

The tucked thing helps me greatly, fwiw.