Distance Driving - Missing the Trees for the Forest

[hazed_0ut]

I'll have to read the rest when I'm not drinking but a good writeup with drills that talks about that pinch point: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19220

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

I'll have to read the rest when I'm not drinking but a good writeup with drills that talks about that pinch point: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19220

Oh, come on. Drunken posts are fun. :thmbup:

 

[hazed_0ut]

It's not the posting, its the understanding all the science inertia talk lol

 

[sidewinder22]

That makes sense. I find it interesting that the guy in the video talks about releasing the lever of the wrist, but ignores the fact that he's doing the exact same thing with his forearm. It seems like another way of saying what I was saying about the pinch point on the disc. Extend it back to the shoulder and, in order, the upper arm opens up, then the forearm, then the wrist. All of which adds acceleration to the disc, but I still maintain that the last contact point of the forefinger on the disc adds spin and the last bit of releasing the lever or 'hammer throw' acceleration to the disc. Here's the thing about the hammer/hatchet analogy: while there's some value to it, where it falls apart is that the far half of the disc/hammer is exactly the same mass as the near half, which isn't like a hammer at all. A real hammer, or hatchet, is easy to throw end over end because nearly all the weight is in the far end of the object. A disc has its weight equally distributed, so throwing a disc is more like throwing a two-headed hammer (picture a hammer with a head at either end of the handle). By holding onto one of the heads of this imaginary hammer it is harder to make it go end over end (spin) by just accelerating the far end, because the near end is just as massive. All we're talking about in all of this is whipping the weight around a rotation point - (ignoring the body below the shoulder) first the elbow, then the wrist, then the pinch point were the disc is gripped. Each of these points has the weight beyond it rotating as they open up and accelerate the disc that much more. When I focus on the pinch point of index finger and thumb, the disc not only leaves their grip spinning more, it is accelerated as it whips around the pivot.

One last thought that occurs to me, which my or may not be grounded in truth. Thinking about the mythical two-headed hammer, one reason it's more difficult to throw it end over end is that, while the throwing motion may accelerate the far head more than the near (handle) head, you're still throwing that head, too. The inertia of the held handle head is nearly as great as the far head, and in the same direction, so it resists basically going backwards, which it must do if the hammer is to spin end over end when released. Reduce or eliminate the mass of the held head and it easily succumbs to spinning against the direction of throw because less mass means less inertia for the spin to counter. We've talked about the drag the grip must create when the disc is thrown and how it must be counter productive to the throw, but maybe what it does is it saps that inertia of the near (handle) end of the disc so that it doesn't put up as much of a fight being made to go backwards as the disc begins to spin. In other words, the last bit of resistance from the grip could be stealing just enough inertia from the near end of the disc so the disc doesn't resist spinning like a two-headed hammer would resist being thrown end over end.

(I hope this parses correctly.) Picture this figure as the two-headed hammer (the O's are the heads, and the line between is the handle connecting them. The arrows show the direction of velocity of both heads is in the same direction up to the release point. Having both moving in the same direction is counter productive to spin because the held head of the hammer must spin backwards to begin a clockwise rotation of the hammer.

(Drawing didn't parse correctly, as feared, so I'm adding the periods to move things to the right as the leading spaces were removed when I submitted. So ignore the rows of periods - they're just there to get things to line up properly.)

...........................O --> Direction of spin and velocity
...........................||
Spin Direction <-- O --> Direction of velocity

If the last bit of drag of the fingers on the disc steals a bit of the held end of the hammer's inertia, though, it will be less resistant to changing to the direction of spin. In the same action it allows you to transfer more acceleration to the far head as it pivots on the pinch point.

Just a thought.

There's no difference between throwing a hammer or two headed hammer, or stick, or disc. You leverage them the same way. Holding a double hammer end feels just like a single hammer because the other heavy part is in your hand as the fulcrum and the moving lever part is the same, it's basically throwing a heavy stick. If you are trying to throw the double hammer by gripping the middle of the lever, than it's going to be much harder to throw and wouldn't be the prudent way to throw it. The heavier the hammer the harder it is to lever, so it will generally fly slower with less spin. The lighter the hammer or stick the easier it is to lever, so it will generally fly and spin faster. The only difference in the spin of the single vs double hammer thrown the same way(and same overall weight) is that the single hammer's rotation will be centered closer to the hammer end, while the double hammer's rotation will be centered like a stick(or disc) - but spin much slower than a stick(or disc) because it's heavier.

The pivot can not accelerate the disc. Only you can you accelerate the disc. When you focus on pinching the thumb and index, you are making a longer lever than if you were slipping or pivoting off pinky. The pivot is the same, the lever is what's changed.

 

[slowplastic]

The pivot can not accelerate the disc. Only you can you accelerate the disc. When you focus on pinching the thumb and index, you are making a longer lever than if you were slipping or pivoting off pinky. The pivot is the same, the lever is what's changed.

I don't know if this matters or if it's just a more individual perspective thing, but do you focus on the far edge of the disc during the throw? I usually focus on my pinch point/release contact point at the hit and really think about getting a clean hit right at that specific point. That is the main thing in my head during a throw. I've heard of other people thinking about the weight on the far edge of the disc.

This is kind of a weird question since the hit is the hit and everyone thinks about different things...but at the same time other mental tricks like "move around the disc" instead of reach back have been said by quite a few people and I like to use that now too.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

There's no difference between throwing a hammer or two headed hammer, or stick, or disc. You leverage them the same way. Holding a double hammer end feels just like a single hammer because the other heavy part is in your hand as the fulcrum and the moving lever part is the same, it's basically throwing a heavy stick. If you are trying to throw the double hammer by gripping the middle of the lever, than it's going to be much harder to throw and wouldn't be the prudent way to throw it. The heavier the hammer the harder it is to lever, so it will generally fly slower with less spin. The lighter the hammer or stick the easier it is to lever, so it will generally fly and spin faster. The only difference in the spin of the single vs double hammer thrown the same way(and same overall weight) is that the single hammer's rotation will be centered closer to the hammer end, while the double hammer's rotation will be centered like a stick(or disc) - but spin much slower than a stick(or disc) because it's heavier.

The pivot can not accelerate the disc. Only you can you accelerate the disc. When you focus on pinching the thumb and index, you are making a longer lever than if you were slipping or pivoting off pinky. The pivot is the same, the lever is what's changed.

I disagree about there being no difference between a one and two-headed hammer. It's not just that the fulcrum is closer to the one head on the one-headed hammer, it's also that the handle presents less mass and thus less resistance to being spun. In other words, it would be far easier to throw a one-headed hammer end over end than a two-headed hammer because the head that is held during the throw on the two-headed version would initially resist participating in rotating the hammer. If you don't believe me, try throwing a regular one-headed hammer end over end by grasping the head end. The hand end tries to rotate, but the head end resists it. That same resistance to rotation is in the held side of the disc.

As or your last statement about the pivot not accelerating the disc - what you say right after that is exactly what I'm talking about. The pivot point creates a longer lever, and that is what I mean by it creates greater spin and acceleration.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't know if this matters or if it's just a more individual perspective thing, but do you focus on the far edge of the disc during the throw? I usually focus on my pinch point/release contact point at the hit and really think about getting a clean hit right at that specific point. That is the main thing in my head during a throw. I've heard of other people thinking about the weight on the far edge of the disc.

This is kind of a weird question since the hit is the hit and everyone thinks about different things...but at the same time other mental tricks like "move around the disc" instead of reach back have been said by quite a few people and I like to use that now too.

I focus on throwing the pink hammer.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21385

 

[sidewinder22]

I disagree about there being no difference between a one and two-headed hammer. It's not just that the fulcrum is closer to the one head on the one-headed hammer, it's also that the handle presents less mass and thus less resistance to being spun. In other words, it would be far easier to throw a one-headed hammer end over end than a two-headed hammer because the head that is held during the throw on the two-headed version would initially resist participating in rotating the hammer. If you don't believe me, try throwing a regular one-headed hammer end over end by grasping the head end. The hand end tries to rotate, but the head end resists it. That same resistance to rotation is in the held side of the disc.

The fulcrum(your grip) is the same on a one or two headed hammer, it's the closest end of the stick/hammer. The heavy end is not resisting spin when thrown by gripping the heavy end. The center of it's rotation changes/shorter because it's center of mass is closer to your grip. You throw/leverage them the same way, but they spin different.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

The fulcrum(your grip) is the same on a one or two headed hammer, it's the closest end of the stick/hammer. The heavy end is not resisting spin when thrown by gripping the heavy end. The center of it's rotation changes/shorter because it's center of mass is closer to your grip. You throw/leverage them the same way, but they spin different.

The end of the two-headed hammer nearest your grip IS resisting spin because its built up inertia has it moving forward, but for the hammer/disc to start spinning, the near hammer head has to suddenly reverse direction 180 degrees, and this is resisted by its inertia. If you try to throw a single-headed hammer end over end, but by gripping the head and swinging the handle, it won't easily spin end over end, not just because of a change in fulcrum position, but because the inertia of the head is forward and the mass of the lighter handle isn't enough to counter that and pull the head backwards, which is necessary to begin the spin.

 

[sidewinder22]

The end of the two-headed hammer nearest your grip IS resisting spin because its built up inertia has it moving forward, but for the hammer/disc to start spinning, the near hammer head has to suddenly reverse direction 180 degrees, and this is resisted by its inertia. If you try to throw a single-headed hammer end over end, but by gripping the head and swinging the handle, it won't easily spin end over end, not just because of a change in fulcrum position, but because the inertia of the head is forward and the mass of the lighter handle isn't enough to counter that and pull the head backwards, which is necessary to begin the spin.

Like I said before, you throw or leverage them the same way. The only difference is the way they spin. I don't try to spin either or care about spin, it's just a byproduct of leverage. I leverage them. How they spin after contact doesn't matter.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also if you throw the hammer by gripping the heavy end, it will spin much faster than by throwing the heavy end, and also won't go nearly as far.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Also if you throw the hammer by gripping the heavy end, it will spin much faster than by throwing the heavy end, and also won't go nearly as far.

Um, no. If you throw the hammer by gripping the heavy end it won't spin at all, not faster. I don't think we're picturing the same thing.

 

[slowplastic]

Um, no. If you throw the hammer by gripping the heavy end it won't spin at all, not faster. I don't think we're picturing the same thing.

Depends on if you throw it right or not.

How about go leverage the crap out of some plastic circles with high arm speed and see how far they go

Trust me though, the more things work out and plateaus are broken, the more a lot of this stuff and how it is described makes sense...other than a lot of the beginner-oriented trash you were talking about initially.

 

[New013]

hammer throw

 

[slowplastic]

If they spun him would he have carried longer? We will never know.

 

[Dan Ensor]

The end of the two-headed hammer nearest your grip IS resisting spin because its built up inertia has it moving forward, but for the hammer/disc to start spinning, the near hammer head has to suddenly reverse direction 180 degrees, and this is resisted by its inertia.

After the pivot, the end nearest your grip is furthest back, and will move forward as the hammer spins.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[ELItheICEman]

After three years of strong-arming every throw (not even aware of it most of the time), I finally decided to return to basics. I started at the hit and moved backwards, only adding the next part when I truly "got" it. I think starting with just a stand-still throw and keeping my elbow effectively immobilized in relation to my shoulders (think bent-elbow technique) really helped in removing the arm muscles from the throw. It forced me to change how I moved in order to transfer energy into the disc. Specifically, I realized body rotation tempo is critical if you don't want a slip on every throw. A brief look at top pros in slow-motion will illustrate the pace (and smoothness) of the rotation.

The result is no more strong-arming and a lot more distance and accuracy.

Could you expand a bit on that idea?

Sorry for the delay - I don't come here very often so I sorta forgot I posted this.

The rotation "tempo" I was referring to is the act of rotating from away-from-the-target to facing-the-target. Naturally, the subconscious wants to accelerate though this rotation because more speed = farther throw, right? Also, everyone preaches that acceleration is good, so that sort of reinforces the idea of accelerating through your body rotation.

Why, then, do the pros in this slow-motion clip all have a steady, smooth, controlled body rotation through their throws?
http://www.averagediscgolf.com/mcbeth-feldberg-koling-and-schusterick-slow-motion-drives/

What it comes down to, in my mind, is that too much speed and acceleration will be poured into the arm and the disc, leading to a very fast "jerk" of acceleration that will give the thrower no prayer of hanging on through the hit. So there is such a thing as "too much" acceleration, in my eyes.

That said, when you slow down your body tempo, it may feel like you can't generate any real power that way, but in reality the power generated is quite adequate because it gives you a better chance of hanging onto the disc through the hit. That's where the distance and power will truly come from. The disc will still be accelerating as you rotate your body, even if you don't feel it.

Hope this helps.

 

[AtomicDom]

It sure does. Appreciate the reply, thought my question was lost pages ago.

I had been strong arming for years until I just started taking the game more serious this season. I have a form critique post that I try to update, unfortunately it's been raining everyday (almost) in KY for about a month straight. This has kept me away from the practice field, but I spend as much time as I can watching other form critiques, tournaments, and reading every thread there ever was on driving form.

It's been a slow and frustrating transition to a completely new way of throwing and I'm often not sure if I'm doing things correctly.

Whenever I can get more info on what seems like a "key point", the better. Thanks.

I'm still just pushing around 250' on a good drive. Consistency and accuracy is where I've seen improvements already. I used to have no hope of hitting the line I wanted on any given throw. Now, with the help of this forum and many others, Im consistently hitting the line I was aiming for. This already has made my rounds much less of a scramble for par than an easy 10 footer for par or better every hole.

Thanks again friends!

 

[Dan Ensor]

What it comes down to, in my mind, is that too much speed and acceleration will be poured into the arm and the disc, leading to a very fast "jerk" of acceleration that will give the thrower no prayer of hanging on through the hit. So there is such a thing as "too much" acceleration, in my eyes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_(physics)

In physics, jerk, also known as jolt, surge, or lurch, is the rate of change of acceleration;

Constant acceleration is preached here. Jerks are bad.