Form critique request

[disc-golf-neil]

Nice. Yeah, I think what I want to pay attention to next is how much the camera angle/parallax play into it vs. their motion. I'm not sure what it will teach us yet but I find it fun

22:43 (AB goes last)

36:09 for the Simon and Calvin spike hyzer

AB's low hyzer vs spike hyzer:

On still 3 (LTR) of the spike hyzer it looks like he could throw a 10 degree launch angle shot from there but then it almost seems like there's a sudden shift after to pitch the shoulders much more upwards. You'll be able to see better than me though if there are telltale signs that it's already preset or not.

 

[Brychanus]

22:43 (AB goes last)

36:09 for the Simon and Calvin spike hyzer

AB's low hyzer vs spike hyzer:
View attachment 338290
On still 3 (LTR) of the spike hyzer it looks like he could throw a 10 degree launch angle shot from there but then it almost seems like there's a sudden shift after to pitch the shoulders much more upwards. You'll be able to see better than me though if there are telltale signs that it's already preset or not.

Maybe we can talk more about AB's posture control more specifically first. I find his entire motion a little bit exotic in ways that it's hard to put my finger on.

He's a little less predictable to me in his motion (posture-wise and appears to involve more postural corrections between his X-step and plant step that are a little hard to describe, but I'm just starting to pay more attention to him).

I know @sidewinder22 has commented about his posture in transition to an extent elsewhere, where when he planted he had some spine extension/anterior pelvic tilt and some knee extension (which are often but not always related, and I tend to advise people to avoid it). It does look like his spine extension has toned down a little, but something about the way he moves looks slightly... different to me.

It looks like minimally he manipulates at the hip hinge more than some other players while keeping his balance stacked over his legs more similar shot to shot.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Maybe we can talk more about AB's posture control more specifically first. I find his entire motion a little bit exotic in ways that it's hard to put my finger on.

He's a little less predictable to me in his motion (posture-wise and appears to involve more postural corrections between his X-step and plant step that are a little hard to describe, but I'm just starting to pay more attention to him).

I know @sidewinder22 has commented about his posture in transition to an extent elsewhere, where when he planted he had some spine extension/anterior pelvic tilt and some knee extension (which are often but not always related, and I tend to advise people to avoid it). It does look like his spine extension has toned down a little, but something about the way he moves looks slightly... different to me.

It looks like minimally he manipulates at the hip hinge more than some other players while keeping his balance stacked over his legs more similar shot to shot.

Interesting. Speaking of postural change in transition

I remember seeing niklas for the first time and being really drawn to his preset hyzer lean and hearing people talk about how he presets it, but I remember being surprised at his anhyzer shots because, iirc, he starts off presetting a hyzer lean and it looks like he's setting up for a hyzer but in transition starts to stand out of it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus it seems like there's a lot of pros who come into the pocket with pronation but don't preset that pronation in the reachback, any idea why? Seems simpler with less moving parts to have it preset to what you want it to be as you initially come into the pocket.

I just came up with a hypothesis while writing this, lol. For me, sometimes I accidentally start the supination too soon and end up with little or no pronation initially in the power pocket. So having to pronate initially as you come into the power pocket ensures you don't start the supination too early and builds up a rhythm instead of holding something in place.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm not 100% sure but I think it helps some people build up internal torque heading into the backswing (they often supinate a bit or a lot into the backswing if they pronate a lot heading into the pocket) that then gets more space advantages in the pocket and/or posture with the pronation coming out of it. Think about like one big "corkscrew" or "screwdriver" effect evolving through the whole move. Simon's comes in very close to him, which means that he'll get a stronger redirection force out of the pocket. GG's is interesting because it comes out wider, and then he actually makes a huge space out away from his body with his body countering the arm as it pronates significantly into the pocket (his "buttwipe" is maybe the most significant of any player in both North South and West East directions). Then GG has that significant supinating phase entering the release. All those details seem to be part of one huge "corkscrew" of torque plus the centrifugal whip out from his body (center).

It might also help some people improve the coil and move off/over the rear leg if they first entered the backswing with more supination first. Not quite sure about that yet.

Since I've been messing with it even more with my "GG lite" mechanics I think that's how his might work at least. I don't get anywhere near as pronated at the moment but the rest of what I'm describing happened in my form, and the pronation I do get is clearly putting a different and at least slightly more force on the disc than before. Maybe a lot more once its well practiced.

Now that I'm getting a bit more of the hang of it it also lets me get more momentum transfer more easily because it makes me "lighter" moving over the rear foot. I just still need to good enough balance to complete the coil. All of it kind of works together.

Also, I added a smaller 4th step to my form just to see if I could use the little bit of momentum to get over my gimped rear leg better. Once I find the rhythm the backswing becomes crisper and quicker, as does the move into the pocket and release. The pronation is part of how the ground force and arm work together (at least for me).

I think I remember Sidewinder pointing this out at various times. This is also why he always would point out to me I was "rotating backwards" out of the pocket. There was a safety issue in my arm and shoulder. I am starting to better understand (in my own throw) why it also was missing a source of potential power. Not how big it is, but it's there. I'm studying GG more than anyone else right now for my own form because there are all kinds of extreme "tricks" that might be there to various degrees in many players, but are much easier to see because he is so vertical and centrifugal...

 

[Brychanus]

FWIW at similar momentum/effort, combo of recent changes in x-step + arm pattern is getting me ~5% more power, inclusive of a bit more supination into backswing and pronation into pocket. Backswing"levitation" is definitely helping me get off the rear side quicker already.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

FWIW at similar momentum/effort, combo of recent changes in x-step + arm pattern is getting me ~5% more power, inclusive of a bit more supination into backswing and pronation into pocket. Backswing"levitation" is definitely helping me get off the rear side quicker already.

This might've already been discussed but I don't recall, I know you and SW have mentioned levitation before but why is it good? Is it because it's a feeling that often usually coincides with getting a deeper relaxed muscle stretch?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Also, interestingly on the topic of "corkscrew" motions. I've recently been testing a putt that has that feel to the stroke and it's given me more consistent clean releases lately, I think because it's combining more movements that all translate into the spin in a fluid motion instead of trying to constrain it too much like arm lift + wrist uncurl only, for example. It's interesting.

Lower arm + internal shoulder rotation + small pronation + small to medium wrist flexion -> lift arm + external shoulder rotation + supination + wrist extension to neutral + open hand / small finger pop.

At first I was hzyering a bit more than usual since the disc goes more into hyzer from both the internal rotation and pronation, but pretty quickly I got used to it. On my normal putt I would supinate quite a bit in the backswing to try to get it flat so when I lift the arm the flat release angle is preset and maintained, but I still hyzer a bit more than I want to fairly often, and especially on higher effort puts because, I think, the side you aren't holding is the heaviest side so it tends to dip down especially when you add momentum. So instead of trying to perfectly match that with maintained supination resistance, it kinda seems easier to start with less supination and more actively move into supination which makes it easier to overcome the dip-into-hyzer force.

 

[Brychanus]

This might've already been discussed but I don't recall, I know you and SW have mentioned levitation before but why is it good? Is it because it's a feeling that often usually coincides with getting a deeper relaxed muscle stretch?

I think there are several answers to this & maybe more I don't know about. I also don't think every top pro uses "levitation" in strictly the same way, and I think some of them are actually not using it at all if their move is very "pull-like" or maxxing out mostly on horizontal forces.

1. For me personally, there is definitely a relaxing effect. When I was using my "bodybuilder" kinetic chain I had all kinds of problems getting way too clenched way too early and it would slow my movement down visibly and measurably. By the way, relaxed is not always meaning a totally loose/relaxed or smoothly accelerating backswing. Now I can find ways to either purely do smooth acceleration like a golf swing, or instead "Burst" out of the backswing depending on little differences in the move (part of what I called Model 1 vs. Model 2). Btw I don't think most of that is really inconsistent with most of what Sidewinder thinks, I'm just emphasizing little differences at the extremes.

2. Anything that allows you to work with rather than against gravity will generally mean you're taking some of the initial load off of muscle/tendons/bones. You can build on gravity effects with muscle. But you can't do it the other way around..

3. This is a slightly "hot take" but part of why I put out the "Model 1 and Model 2" video. I think part of why some communities "talk past" each other is that there's a big multidimensional space of options around whatever the "best" form is for a player. Almost all high level moves involve some kind of wave-like motion from reachback to release when you watch the entire motion pattern. The backswing levitation accounts for part of the "wave" function you see in these images Sidewinder marked up. The lines are for the head and for the disc path. GG's is gigantic. McBeth's became very horizontal over time, but you can still see it. Gibson's move looks "flat" to most people who spend too much time watching what happens at the plant, but look at the wave function somewhat earlier than that and before his X-step. And so on. Most of these players' moves found a way to slightly "levitate" in their backswings. Then they built on that "gravity boost" with the rest of the move.

Also, interestingly on the topic of "corkscrew" motions. I've recently been testing a putt that has that feel to the stroke and it's given me more consistent clean releases lately, I think because it's combining more movements that all translate into the spin in a fluid motion instead of trying to constrain it too much like arm lift + wrist uncurl only, for example. It's interesting.

Lower arm + internal shoulder rotation + small pronation + small to medium wrist flexion -> lift arm + external shoulder rotation + supination + wrist extension to neutral + open hand / small finger pop.

At first I was hzyering a bit more than usual since the disc goes more into hyzer from both the internal rotation and pronation, but pretty quickly I got used to it. On my normal putt I would supinate quite a bit in the backswing to try to get it flat so when I lift the arm the flat release angle is preset and maintained, but I still hyzer a bit more than I want to fairly often, and especially on higher effort puts because, I think, the side you aren't holding is the heaviest side so it tends to dip down especially when you add momentum. So instead of trying to perfectly match that with maintained supination resistance, it kinda seems easier to start with less supination and more actively move into supination which makes it easier to overcome the dip-into-hyzer force.

I think you are starting to discover with your putt part of what I was hinting at with some grip ideas and their interactions with other variables.* Arms don't just hinge, they "corkscrew" a bit in most natural motions. My putt works in a similar way to how you describe, but the rotation pattern differs (per below). I don't practice it at all (I get bored and prefer working on driving form) so I'm not always precise, but I was much more accurate after I figured out the rotating "corkscrew" part of the motion and when I do finally practice I get more precise quickly. Throwing textbooks and small weights in putting stance helped me build the chain.

*Sequence: just wanted to mention one little putting sequence difference/option it sounds like we have. Like the backhand, you can also have a putt that is just still internally rotating into the equivalent of the putting "pocket." I do think there are individual differences out there though. E.g., I think Sidewinder uses a counterclockwise shoulder rotation and tends to hyzer putt, some people windmill forward vs. backward, etc. My putt functions more like my backhand so it supinates slightly going back, then pronates slightly into the pocket, and does that weird "hammer" pressure and unloading effect I can't describe well in words at the release. I probably only have good angle and distance control because of all the other drills I did throwing hammers and heavy things from a putting stance. I'm equally comfortable throwing it hyzer, flat, or anhyzer. I couldn't get any other option to work very reliably for me and had trouble with anhyzer* with other styles, so I stuck with it. My C2 putting got a lot better too and it was easier to throw 100' from a putting stance so I stopped tinkering with it after that.

*very helpful with woods/uneven terrain putts to be able to hit all angles at all times including behind obstructions from 100'. I also started making all kinds of putts I never practice once I learned my own "best" move.

 

[Brychanus]

36:09 for the Simon and Calvin spike hyzer

Yeah this is good/teaching me (and fun)! Thank you.

For Simon's shot (who's close to what I think of as a "posture purist" in how he angles his shots) I needed to consider (1) the slope of the green, (2) the relative pitch of his overall posture, and (3) the hints about his stride pattern moving into the plant. I don't think I judged (1) correctly, so I made a bad guess about the rest. The (3) stride pattern should have been a hint to me relative to the rest of his posture/full body tilt. I don't know how reliably that I would have guessed full spike hyzer without more brain training but that accounts for part of why I missed it. Love that he looks back at the camera right after he throws it OB lmao.

For Calvin's shot I definitely thought that (1) the slope of the green was much "flatter" than it was. But what's more interesting to me now that I can see the slope is the "redirection" force of his move as he lands to commit the spike hyzer. I think that tells me a little more about Calvin's move overall because it has always looked like it kind of "traps" and converts forces in tight with more torque forces than someone like Simon. His whip involves a little more of an adjustment in the plant that's not as "posture pure" as Simon. Just a potential observation. I think I would probably be better at learning from Simon's move from shot to shot and learn to predict it faster than Calvin's at this point.

Anyway, throw any more at me when you feel like it, this is super cool lol

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yeah this is good/teaching me (and fun)! Thank you.

For Simon's shot (who's close to what I think of as a "posture purist" in how he angles his shots) I needed to consider (1) the slope of the green, (2) the relative pitch of his overall posture, and (3) the hints about his stride pattern moving into the plant. I don't think I judged (1) correctly, so I made a bad guess about the rest. The (3) stride pattern should have been a hint to me relative to the rest of his posture/full body tilt. I don't know how reliably that I would have guessed full spike hyzer without more brain training but that accounts for part of why I missed it. Love that he looks back at the camera right after he throws it OB lmao.

For Calvin's shot I definitely thought that (1) the slope of the green was much "flatter" than it was. But what's more interesting to me now that I can see the slope is the "redirection" force of his move as he lands to commit the spike hyzer. I think that tells me a little more about Calvin's move overall because it has always looked like it kind of "traps" and converts forces in tight with more torque forces than someone like Simon. His whip involves a little more of an adjustment in the plant that's not as "posture pure" as Simon. Just a potential observation. I think I would probably be better at learning from Simon's move from shot to shot and learn to predict it faster than Calvin's at this point.

Anyway, throw any more at me when you feel like it, this is super cool lol

If you thought that shot was funny from Simon, check out this one from earlier in the tournament

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think there are several answers to this & maybe more I don't know about. I also don't think every top pro uses "levitation" in strictly the same way, and I think some of them are actually not using it at all if their move is very "pull-like" or maxxing out mostly on horizontal forces.

1. For me personally, there is definitely a relaxing effect. When I was using my "bodybuilder" kinetic chain I had all kinds of problems getting way too clenched way too early and it would slow my movement down visibly and measurably. By the way, relaxed is not always meaning a totally loose/relaxed or smoothly accelerating backswing. Now I can find ways to either purely do smooth acceleration like a golf swing, or instead "Burst" out of the backswing depending on little differences in the move (part of what I called Model 1 vs. Model 2). Btw I don't think most of that is really inconsistent with most of what Sidewinder thinks, I'm just emphasizing little differences at the extremes.

2. Anything that allows you to work with rather than against gravity will generally mean you're taking some of the initial load off of muscle/tendons/bones. You can build on gravity effects with muscle. But you can't do it the other way around..

3. This is a slightly "hot take" but part of why I put out the "Model 1 and Model 2" video. I think part of why some communities "talk past" each other is that there's a big multidimensional space of options around whatever the "best" form is for a player. Almost all high level moves involve some kind of wave-like motion from reachback to release when you watch the entire motion pattern. The backswing levitation accounts for part of the "wave" function you see in these images Sidewinder marked up. The lines are for the head and for the disc path. GG's is gigantic. McBeth's became very horizontal over time, but you can still see it. Gibson's move looks "flat" to most people who spend too much time watching what happens at the plant, but look at the wave function somewhat earlier than that and before his X-step. And so on. Most of these players' moves found a way to slightly "levitate" in their backswings. Then they built on that "gravity boost" with the rest of the move.

I think you are starting to discover with your putt part of what I was hinting at with some grip ideas and their interactions with other variables.* Arms don't just hinge, they "corkscrew" a bit in most natural motions. My putt works in a similar way to how you describe, but the rotation pattern differs (per below). I don't practice it at all (I get bored and prefer working on driving form) so I'm not always precise, but I was much more accurate after I figured out the rotating "corkscrew" part of the motion and when I do finally practice I get more precise quickly. Throwing textbooks and small weights in putting stance helped me build the chain.

*Sequence: just wanted to mention one little putting sequence difference/option it sounds like we have. Like the backhand, you can also have a putt that is just still internally rotating into the equivalent of the putting "pocket." I do think there are individual differences out there though. E.g., I think Sidewinder uses a counterclockwise shoulder rotation and tends to hyzer putt, some people windmill forward vs. backward, etc. My putt functions more like my backhand so it supinates slightly going back, then pronates slightly into the pocket, and does that weird "hammer" pressure and unloading effect I can't describe well in words at the release. I probably only have good angle and distance control because of all the other drills I did throwing hammers and heavy things from a putting stance. I'm equally comfortable throwing it hyzer, flat, or anhyzer. I couldn't get any other option to work very reliably for me and had trouble with anhyzer* with other styles, so I stuck with it. My C2 putting got a lot better too and it was easier to throw 100' from a putting stance so I stopped tinkering with it after that.

*very helpful with woods/uneven terrain putts to be able to hit all angles at all times including behind obstructions from 100'. I also started making all kinds of putts I never practice once I learned my own "best" move.

Do you think a lower reach back gives more potential for leveraging levitation?

 

[Brychanus]

If you thought that shot was funny from Simon, check out this one from earlier in the tournament

Amazing. To see the course through that guy's eyes...

Do you think a lower reach back gives more potential for leveraging levitation?

IMHO/experience:

1. Think about door frame drills. Lower reachback (at least initially, and for some people forever) helps you learn to get off the rear side "swinging upward nose down." That's also what the shift off the rear side of Ride the Bull is supposed to teach. Notice how his throwing hand is always lower than the leading elbow in this drill or door frame drills.

I learn to try to maximize this launch angle with my whole posture. It's much easier in terms of effort/distance ratio. It might be because I'm a big guy but probably everyone would find some efficiency advantages in it. Leading leg and hip are closed, posture is in braced tilt, and at the release the posture is towing the disc "upward nose down" like door frame or ride the bull. You see most pros doing some version of it.

2. If you use a more pendular or rising backswing or "downshift" past a level backswing (all sort of the same thing in the net effect), then you can combine (a) the levitating advantage in the backswing with (b) the "swinging upward nose down" effect of Door Frame or Riding the Bull.

3. Visual exercises:

Watch Simon then GG. Simon's reachback stays relatively (but not absolutely) level relative to the ground in his modern form, but if you watch his body he is "downshifting" into the plant (his mass gets low because he is striding off the rear leg in athletic posture), so the backswing remains "levitated" relative to his shift. Then watch how his elbow briefly drops lower than the disc entering the backswing, and then again as it moves toward the pocket but more subtly because his arm is pulled taut.

GG's is a variation on that theme, except he hops much higher and therefore drops much lower. Watch how exiting the backswing the elbow and then disc/hand is dropping even more vertically, accelerating on what his body already did to boost the swing dropping into the plant. My point is that you can learn the "same" thing if you are very horizontal like modern Simon. This is what I am currently trying to maximize in my form. I will concede that learning to transfer very vertical to horizontal force requires some serious patience, but for me the efficiency is worth it/the health of my legs and knees. Everyone's different.

Notice they both take the arm out-in-out to different degrees relative to their actual mass and center of mass. I don't like argue with people about whether it's called a pull or a swing really - it's a throw - I just pay attention to and compare actions.

Each of them is doing a version of this exiting the backswing. Underrated move. Watch how his grip and wrist works and think about that working on a disc:

Everyone's a little different but you see most of the same beats in one form or another. Watch Gibson. See the wave-like/flattened pendulum motion in both his backswing and his head across the images? See the elbow leading the disc slightly "down" into the pocket then "swinging upward nose down" relative to his hand as he enters the release? Notice how low his leading shoulder is low entering the pocket like a Dingle Arm drill?

 

[RowingBoats]

Also, interestingly on the topic of "corkscrew" motions. I've recently been testing a putt that has that feel to the stroke and it's given me more consistent clean releases lately, I think because it's combining more movements that all translate into the spin in a fluid motion instead of trying to constrain it too much like arm lift + wrist uncurl only, for example. It's interesting.

Lower arm + internal shoulder rotation + small pronation + small to medium wrist flexion -> lift arm + external shoulder rotation + supination + wrist extension to neutral + open hand / small finger pop.

At first I was hzyering a bit more than usual since the disc goes more into hyzer from both the internal rotation and pronation, but pretty quickly I got used to it. On my normal putt I would supinate quite a bit in the backswing to try to get it flat so when I lift the arm the flat release angle is preset and maintained, but I still hyzer a bit more than I want to fairly often, and especially on higher effort puts because, I think, the side you aren't holding is the heaviest side so it tends to dip down especially when you add momentum. So instead of trying to perfectly match that with maintained supination resistance, it kinda seems easier to start with less supination and more actively move into supination which makes it easier to overcome the dip-into-hyzer force.

I think you might be describing what I would call keeping the figure 8 pattern in tact in the putt. I 100% agree that this is super helpful, and I think it's actually more common than it seems.

There are definitely good putters that are pretty dang stabby, but a lot of people do some form of a loading downswing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think you might be describing what I would call keeping the figure 8 pattern in tact in the putt. I 100% agree that this is super helpful, and I think it's actually more common than it seems.

There are definitely good putters that are pretty dang stabby, but a lot of people do some form of a loading downswing.

Interesting, I think Isaac's is one of the most obvious example of this because the disc has hyzer tilt as he brings it down to the left thigh but he usually releases it closer to flat, requiring a good bit of supination to get there and this is partly why I think he gets such effortless power which I feel a bit when comparing this style to something more stabby or keeping the putter flat in the back swing an trying to maintain it flat as I bring the arm up.

Here's a good long Isaac putt at 4354:



I think Marwede does this too but it's just in-between the legs backswing, and you can see the putter on hyzer.

I thought I remembered Ricky doing it, but after checking recent tournaments it looked like he maintained supination most of the time so I'm not sure how he gets so much power, I think it's more from lifting the arm with more forward-focused-upward momentum so it's not too lofty and instead more power.

I can't figure out how Simon gets effortless power with such a small backswing and very little noticeable wrist curl or arm lift. I can get decent power with a similar stroke where the arm motion mostly alone causes the putter to start pivoting out instead of using more wrist flick but I more often get a little wobble when doing that and usually my instinct is to add a lot of wrist action to this style because of the abbreviated to compensate with more wrist power.

 

[RowingBoats]

Interesting, I think Isaac's is one of the most obvious example of this because the disc has hyzer tilt as he brings it down to the left thigh but he usually releases it closer to flat, requiring a good bit of supination to get there and this is partly why I think he gets such effortless power which I feel a bit when comparing this style to something more stabby or keeping the putter flat in the back swing an trying to maintain it flat as I bring the arm up.

Here's a good long Isaac putt at 4354:



I think Marwede does this too but it's just in-between the legs backswing, and you can see the putter on hyzer.

I thought I remembered Ricky doing it, but after checking recent tournaments it looked like he maintained supination most of the time so I'm not sure how he gets so much power, I think it's more from lifting the arm with more forward-focused-upward momentum so it's not too lofty and instead more power.

I can't figure out how Simon gets effortless power with such a small backswing and very little noticeable wrist curl or arm lift. I can get decent power with a similar stroke where the arm motion mostly alone causes the putter to start pivoting out instead of using more wrist flick but I more often get a little wobble when doing that and usually my instinct is to add a lot of wrist action to this style because of the abbreviated to compensate with more wrist power.

I sympathize lol. It sounds like you are on the right track though.

One of the major things I did wrong for a while, and still can do because I get scared to miss, is to disconnect my stroke. I see a LOT of inconsistent putters do the exact same thing. The simplest way to describe it is...that you start leveraging/spinning the disc way, way too late. Half or more of the stroke is basically powerless nonsense, and then there is a final 'oh shit' moment where you feel like you have to generate power at the end.

Confidently starting the power immediately is the trick in my experience. The disc needs to feel heavy right out of whatever downswing you are using and accelerate the entire time.

 

[Brychanus]

I can't figure out how Simon gets effortless power with such a small backswing and very little noticeable wrist curl or arm lift. I can get decent power with a similar stroke where the arm motion mostly alone causes the putter to start pivoting out instead of using more wrist flick but I more often get a little wobble when doing that and usually my instinct is to add a lot of wrist action to this style because of the abbreviated to compensate with more wrist power.

FWIW I can maybe answer part of this (and have a puzzle at the end). This thread also had some interesting stuff in it. This is from around the time I really started liking my putting power and accuracy (precision gets better quickly with practice).

KISS method: Simon is my favorite putter so I learned my putt mostly from watching Simon's mechanics, one leg drill, throwing textbooks, and importantly from the only guy in my regular group who has (legitimate) pro-level putting stats when he's practicing.

I think like RB is saying, overall Simon's power is from that Figure 8 action, and notice that when he does a bigger motion he has big motion of rocking his body mass. That's the part I spent the most time learning from him and my friend. It looked good and works well.



But I think a lot of people are missing out on the ground force reaction of the plant when they are moving very small distances. They "disconnect" like RB is saying. They turn their putt into something else - a very wimpy action. For me, it's just a tiny forward-facing backhand and recruits all the same power mechanisms. When you shrink all that motion down including the backswing, you can still get a solid weight shift and a lot of ground force reaction from the front leg. That's what I learned to transfer from the front leg by throwing textbooks. I haven't tried recently but I can probably clear 150' facing forward in my putting stance from a full backswing without too much effort.

So I don't need to rock or backswing much at all to reach the basket from edge of circle one or farther out. I just do it so that I can reinforce repeatable mechanics at all ranges.

I sympathize lol. It sounds like you are on the right track though.

One of the major things I did wrong for a while, and still can do because I get scared to miss, is to disconnect my stroke. I see a LOT of inconsistent putters do the exact same thing. The simplest way to describe it is...that you start leveraging/spinning the disc way, way too late. Half or more of the stroke is basically powerless nonsense, and then there is a final 'oh shit' moment where you feel like you have to generate power at the end.

Confidently starting the power immediately is the trick in my experience. The disc needs to feel heavy right out of whatever downswing you are using and accelerate the entire time.

"Powerless nonsense" is hilarious and I think I discovered the same thing.

What still puzzles me sometimes: in Simon's backhand and his putts though there is definitely something spooky going on with his wrist and hand action and pressure. It never looks quite the same as anyone else to me. Maybe whatever you get starting at 2 years old.

 

[RowingBoats]

FWIW I can maybe answer part of this (and have a puzzle at the end). This thread also had some interesting stuff in it. This is from around the time I really started liking my putting power and accuracy (precision gets better quickly with practice).

KISS method: Simon is my favorite putter so I learned my putt mostly from watching Simon's mechanics, one leg drill, throwing textbooks, and importantly from the only guy in my regular group who has (legitimate) pro-level putting stats when he's practicing.

I think like RB is saying, overall Simon's power is from that Figure 8 action, and notice that when he does a bigger motion he has big motion of rocking his body mass. That's the part I spent the most time learning from him and my friend. It looked good and works well.



But I think a lot of people are missing out on the ground force reaction of the plant when they are moving very small distances. They "disconnect" like RB is saying. They turn their putt into something else - a very wimpy action. For me, it's just a tiny forward-facing backhand and recruits all the same power mechanisms. When you shrink all that motion down including the backswing, you can still get a solid weight shift and a lot of ground force reaction from the front leg. That's what I learned to transfer from the front leg by throwing textbooks. I haven't tried recently but I can probably clear 150' facing forward in my putting stance from a full backswing without too much effort.

So I don't need to rock or backswing much at all to reach the basket from edge of circle one or farther out. I just do it so that I can reinforce repeatable mechanics at all ranges.



"Powerless nonsense" is hilarious and I think I discovered the same thing.

What still puzzles me sometimes: in Simon's backhand and his puts though there is definitely something spooky going on with his wrist and hand action and pressure. It never looks quite the same as anyone else to me. Maybe whatever you get starting at 2 years old.

Simon definitely has some kind of spooky shit going on, that's a fact.

He's definitely the steeziest putter. Do you actually try to putt like him for real though, flight path wise? It is just so hard lol.

 

[Brychanus]

Simon definitely has some kind of spooky shit going on, that's a fact.

He's definitely the steeziest putter. Do you actually try to putt like him for real though, flight path wise? It is just so hard lol.

I think my "stock" C1 putt comes out similar to his and gets that hyzering path. It's pretty spinny. It's of course just not as good or spooky lmao. (e.g. 2:10)


But the thing I really like that never happened until I copied him are those awesome, spinny, floaty anhyzer C2 putts he pulls out sometimes that coast right back into the basket. This is the one (10:00):



Talk about "natural learning" - I don't know what it was but once I learned how to move more like him overall, I was hitting metal with that putt all the time and I sink them more than I probably should since I never practice it. It's not quite as magical looking as his but it has a bit of the magic. I took a page out of your book - as soon as I got it to "click" naturally I was like "STOP F*%&ing with putting mechanics."

Found this older vid of him talking about spin putting that helped me get out of "wimpy putting" mode.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think my "stock" C1 putt comes out similar to his and gets that hyzering path. It's pretty spinny. It's of course just not as good or spooky lmao. (e.g. 2:10)


But the thing I really like that never happened until I copied him are those awesome, spinny, floaty anhyzer C2 putts he pulls out sometimes that coast right back into the basket. This is the one (10:00):



Talk about "natural learning" - I don't know what it was but once I learned how to move more like him overall, I was hitting metal with that putt all the time and I sink them more than I probably should since I never practice it. It's not quite as magical looking as his but it has a bit of the magic. I took a page out of your book - as soon as I got it to "click" naturally I was like "STOP F*%&ing with putting mechanics."

Found this older vid of him talking about spin putting that helped me get out of "wimpy putting" mode.

"next and most importantly, grip" then he subtly readjusts his index finger just before putting, probably doesn't even realize it just like the Paul U video where he had never thought of which fingers has more pressure against the thumb, lol.