Form critique request

[Brychanus]

"next and most importantly, grip" then he subtly readjusts his index finger just before putting, probably doesn't even realize it just like the Paul U video where he had never thought of which fingers has more pressure against the thumb, lol.

View attachment 338680

That also just totally reminded me that when I switched to yeti pro aviars I was making all kinds of little adjustments with the thumb and index finger against the thumb track and bead and then my spin putts got dramatically better. I probably am not even doing what I think I'm doing with my hand anymore and make little changes without realizing it haha

 

[RowingBoats]

That also just totally reminded me that when I switched to yeti pro aviars I was making all kinds of little adjustments with the thumb and index finger against the thumb track and bead and then my spin putts got dramatically better. I probably am not even doing what I think I'm doing with my hand anymore and make little changes without realizing it haha

Eventually this has to be done imo. You absolutely have to leave all of the analysis behind and actually feel the disc itself as the primary object of manipulation, and spare no thought for what your body is doing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Do you actually try to putt like him for real though, flight path wise? It is just so hard lol.

It's actually similar to my most natural style (but with more wrist) when I first picked up a putter and tried to putt because it's so simple. Just move the arm and wrist forward in the direction of the rim and spin it. Whereas in a "push" seems less intuitive initially if you have an instinct to spin because it seems like a prominent lift motion isn't aligned with the wrist action as much and isn't going to give you a lot of forward power.

However, I don't use my natural style as my main style because I've been focusing on practicing to learn other styles because I always know if I need to I can use my natural style or revert to it without as much focused practiced required since it's just easier. But I want to make sure before I fully commit to it that I don't like something else better that just has a bigger barrier to entry to get used to.

Also, early on, my aim wasn't as good so with the more spin putt style misses left and right were more likely and going further passed the basket was more likely, so that also attracted me to try to learn more of a spush style.

I get the cleanest releases with least wobble and lots of spin with a more spush style, like the one in the video a few posts back or one where the backswing brings the disc flat to my thigh (without as much pronation and internal shoulder rotation) near the left knee to get more arm lift action. The upwards momentum makes the disc so much more weightless as you open your hand so it just floats cleanly up and away from the hand instead of having to slide forward out of the hand like a "spin putt".

God, I hate the terms "push" putt and "spin putt". To me a "(s)push" putt's most prominent difference from a "spin" putt is much more of a LIFT motion which feels nothing like a push motion.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That also just totally reminded me that when I switched to yeti pro aviars I was making all kinds of little adjustments with the thumb and index finger against the thumb track and bead and then my spin putts got dramatically better. I probably am not even doing what I think I'm doing with my hand anymore and make little changes without realizing it haha

I'm hyper aware of my fingers and grip because I've tested so many things deliberately with them while putting.

One interesting one was pushing the thumb forward-down quite a bit while the fingers underneath put pressure in the opposite direction against the thumb's forward pressure.

 

[Brychanus]

God, I hate the terms "push" putt and "spin putt". To me a "(s)push" putt's most prominent difference from a "spin" putt is much more of a LIFT motion which feels nothing like a push motion.

As anal as I appear to be about backhand mechanics I just realized I'm almost the opposite for putting. I barely ever paid attention to the labels or details and just tried to copy Simon and learn from my awesome putting friend. So I'm not even sure what my putt is, and I know Simon has also talked about working on his "push" putt. Whatever I am doing "feels" a lot like throwing a book or hammer from a putting stance. I rock a lot like Simon otherwise and the outcome looks sort of like how Simon's putts fly. So what am I technically, a spush putter? Is there even a hard line? E.g.

Push Putting Technique - Disc Golf Puttheads

Push putting in disc golf is an alternative to the more traditional spin putting. Dave Feldberg is a professional that uses push putting.

www.dgputtheads.com

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Live by the spin, and then die.

 

[RowingBoats]

Live by the spin, and then die.

Yep, full commit

"I was wondering if you could do it when it matters...
...as it matters in battle."

 

[Brychanus]

Live by the spin, and then die.

Like the top line.

I think you could get a bit more rockin' through the lower body and braced up a bit better/get more power out of your shift.

 

[RowingBoats]

Like the top line.

I think you could get a bit more rockin' through the lower body and braced up a bit better/get more power out of your shift.

Lol that looked like some powerful putting to me man.

 

[Brychanus]

Lol that looked like some powerful putting to me man.

It is, you know I'm just a filthy maximizer and scarred from countless hours looking at motion details, including details about shifting weight maybe second only to Sidewinder.

Edit: I half apologize, or will all the way if you tell me to lmao

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Like the top line.

I think you could get a bit more rockin' through the lower body and braced up a bit better/get more power out of your shift.

What do you mean by "top line"?

I actually rock more on slower putts. I'll try more rocking on these power putts next time but for whatever reason it wasn't my instinct, because I was trying to be explosive and guess I felt like I needed a smaller explosive back foot drive to match the feeling of the arm being explosive in a short feeling stroke.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just tested it outside and this power can get me like 60 feet to under a basket and like 80-90 with a jumper to under a basket but I probably back end up backswinging a bit deeper to the left for the further ones. Surprisingly, the corkscrew / figure 8 putt in the video before between the legs was able to keep up at both 60 and 80-90 feet. I think it's because it optimizes spin and power from more sources (more shoulder rotation and wrist rotation).

 

[Brychanus]

What do you mean by "top line"?

I actually rock more on slower putts. I'll try more rocking on these power putts next time but for whatever reason it wasn't my instinct, because I was trying to be explosive and guess I felt like I needed a smaller explosive back foot drive to match the feeling of the arm being explosive in a short feeling stroke.

Top line = action chain through the upper body. Those are coming out strong, confident and clean.

Main thing for short stroke I noticed is you may be leaking forward at the knee a bit so you're not getting maximum ground force and leverage, and your legs/knees are coming down a bit together rather than rocking/walking motion even though it is a narrow range of motion. Making it feel a bit more like a full rock but over a shorter range may help. Still clearly enough to get plenty though like RB said, so just something you might play with if you like. Putting is a very personal skill.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus Eagle's backswing is looking like it has more pronation than usual I've noticed lately. Or maybe it's just on the softer drives.

3:06
20:13 looks like a harder drive

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus Eagle's backswing is looking like it has more pronation than usual I've noticed lately. Or maybe it's just on the softer drives.

3:06
20:13 looks like a harder drive

Hey, that's very interesting. It does look a little more pronated than I remember.

Possible he's mostly doing that when powered down somewhat, but I'd have to watch more of his earlier short range shots. The action especially at 20:13 looks a bit different than it used to, and he is a little more "out" from his posture in the reachback than I'm used to seeing him (maybe). 20:13 looked like a close-to-flat release. Also interesting that he is supinating somewhat coming into the pocket.*

If not just due to shorter than high power shots, I wonder if he is adjusting it to help protect his shoulder?

I guess if I mentally adjust for his power drive hyzer angles, his backswing peak is somewhat pronated, but maybe not as dramatic as the clip you shared.

here's an earlier downhill rip

Lowish line power hyzerflip

*Sidewinder had worked for a while on me fixing my "backwards rotation" (supinating) into the pocket, part of which is what it looks like Eagle is doing at 20:13. However, Sidewinder was mostly trying to get me to fix my opening/externally rotating shoulder (which is dangerous and very likely less powerful). Eagle is still maintaining a clearly closed/internally rotating shoulder while he's doing that supination into the pocket. That made me think about some of the weird force chains and torques that might be occurring on the disc.

I have messed a lot with my backswing action over time. To me it's kind of interesting that the "best" one for me is the levitating/supinating backswing, which however I enter the pocket always seems to make it more likely that my shoulder is more closed and internally rotating in the pocket. If I supinate as extremely as Eagle looks like it goes into the pocket, I tend to get more shoulder collapse and torque and less acceleration at the end of the swing. I now wonder now if this is related to that "up force/down force" effect I was talking about, which I'm pretty sure exists (or can exist, at least) now that I've "found" it in my own form.

Just a fuzzy hypothesis: Eagle moves much more horizontal than me so maybe that implies something about the arm action pattern. He's probably still getting some of this effect below because his plant leg is putting a force "up" from the ground, but probably where the pressure and grip go along the whip sequence is different, which might also mean something for the arm pattern. I didn't measure it yet but I think I gained a couple MPH based on how the discs were flying once I got this white force and green force to "connect" today:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus I had an interesting experience testing some form stuff on the course tonight.

I tried stepping my brace a bit more northwestward instead of northward on the tee and used a bigger and more eastward or northeastward X step instead of a mostly northward X step like I usually do to feel more set up to brace more westward, like Simon and I felt quite a bit of extra power on some of my throws but without more effort, even down to the grip feeling stronger or it was just the feeling of more speed / disc weight.

I'm excited to try it with the tech disc soon and see if there actually is a speed increase and see if there's a noticeable difference like maybe my plant is extra closed or something.

What's weird though is I tried this before and it felt weird but same power but threw me off a bit whereas tonight it didn't throw me off. Last time, I did the same X step change but it threw off my pump and I wasn't even trying to think about my pump. Instead of my pump feeling like it went forward with my X step where the momentum of both go together, it felt like the pump was trying to go northward but the X step going more northeastward and they weren't going together. Also, for the brace this previous time, I was thinking more about the overall crescent shape which brought my attention to the initial movement direction of the brace foot and then imagining the shape it would take from there, whereas tonight I only thought about the brace stepping more eastward and not about the overall shape or initial movement of it being more northeastward before going back the other way. And for whatever reason, I didn't get the same feeling about the pump being off but I didn't think about the pump or try to change anything.

It's hard to describe how the extra power felt but the two thoughts that popped into my head were:
1. It feels a bit like how GG's off-arm style looks like it would feel to me, where his off-arm looks like it's actually swinging in the opposite way to create a stronger stop to the rotation to fling it out harder.
2. It reminded me of backhand swinging a heavy door open with your own bodyweight pulling the heavy door through your arm and then being able to really fling it open once it gets going because you can pull against the hinge more outwards than the door wants to go but that force is smoothly translated into the hinge rotating it open.
3. One of them felt like I grip locked it but it still went to 12 o'clock or only a tiny bit more to the right than I was aiming.

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus I had an interesting experience testing some form stuff on the course tonight.

I tried stepping my brace a bit more northwestward instead of northward on the tee and used a bigger and more eastward or northeastward X step instead of a mostly northward X step like I usually do to feel more set up to brace more westward, like Simon and I felt quite a bit of extra power on some of my throws but without more effort, even down to the grip feeling stronger or it was just the feeling of more speed / disc weight.

I'm excited to try it with the tech disc soon and see if there actually is a speed increase and see if there's a noticeable difference like maybe my plant is extra closed or something.

What's weird though is I tried this before and it felt weird but same power but threw me off a bit whereas tonight it didn't throw me off. Last time, I did the same X step change but it threw off my pump and I wasn't even trying to think about my pump. Instead of my pump feeling like it went forward with my X step where the momentum of both go together, it felt like the pump was trying to go northward but the X step going more northeastward and they weren't going together. Also, for the brace this previous time, I was thinking more about the overall crescent shape which brought my attention to the initial movement direction of the brace foot and then imagining the shape it would take from there, whereas tonight I only thought about the brace stepping more eastward and not about the overall shape or initial movement of it being more northeastward before going back the other way. And for whatever reason, I didn't get the same feeling about the pump being off but I didn't think about the pump or try to change anything.

It's hard to describe how the extra power felt but the two thoughts that popped into my head were:
1. It feels a bit like how GG's off-arm style looks like it would feel to me, where his off-arm looks like it's actually swinging in the opposite way to create a stronger stop to the rotation to fling it out harder.
2. It reminded me of backhand swinging a heavy door open with your own bodyweight pulling the heavy door through your arm and then being able to really fling it open once it gets going because you can pull against the hinge more outwards than the door wants to go but that force is smoothly translated into the hinge rotating it open.
3. One of them felt like I grip locked it but it still went to 12 o'clock or only a tiny bit more to the right than I was aiming.

I still frequently encounter little things in form that I suddenly realize are sources of power but it can be frustrating to get it into the total move. I think you see a lot of differences in stride patterns out there and it's probably some kind of optimization between body type, balance control, pull/swing type, grip, yadda yadda.

Sometimes - and I bring this up because I am used to watching your transition move off the rear side - the northwestward stride pattern is a compensation for tipping off the rear side a bit. It does tend to land you closed off to the target, and therefore lets you get (1) a momentum stop, (2) a closed leverage point to pull/swing, and (3) also can get you a ground force reaction and leverage point hard against the ground. However if that is the case, it is probably somewhat harder on the leg in the long run than coming off a balanced full CoM-shifting Figure 8 transition move, and it is related to missing out on some of the efficiency "tricks" we were chatting about. So I'd be curious to see the move in real time + of course your TD data.

It potentially sounds like previously, your northward pump was bringing you more "over the top" of the brace whereas you are not bringing it either "on top" or "behind" the brace (possibly bad, depending on my paragraph above). I do think sometimes attention to the stride pattern can trigger/reshape the balance points too, so maybe that's part of what's happening (we could see).

1. I've used GG's move before and that's kind of how I think it works. I stopped because my lower body and balance were nowhere close to being able to make good use of it at the time. There's also a scary amount of potential power in that maneuver.
2. I don't know that this man thought of everything, but yes:


3. In general I don't think it's unusual for people to go through phases of unstable left or right or up or down releases relative to wherever their "ideal" ends up. Based on what I've seen out there, people tend to find sources of power before they can control them. A "WTF Richard" rightward release can still teach you something about an arm swing - but connecting it up to balance and the lower body can take a lifetime (or to whenever you stop fussing with it).


Next suggestion for you: what would it take for you to get your posture/booty into this transition move like Simon? Ignore the shot & angle, just talking about balance and posture again.

Pre-set the booty.


Adapt to Backhand.


Be tall or rising in the step before the X-step, then drifting and dropping into the plant in transition.

Profit (if done well).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I still frequently encounter little things in form that I suddenly realize are sources of power but it can be frustrating to get it into the total move. I think you see a lot of differences in stride patterns out there and it's probably some kind of optimization between body type, balance control, pull/swing type, grip, yadda yadda.

Sometimes - and I bring this up because I am used to watching your transition move off the rear side - the northwestward stride pattern is a compensation for tipping off the rear side a bit. It does tend to land you closed off to the target, and therefore lets you get (1) a momentum stop, (2) a closed leverage point to pull/swing, and (3) also can get you a ground force reaction and leverage point hard against the ground. However if that is the case, it is probably somewhat harder on the leg in the long run than coming off a balanced full CoM-shifting Figure 8 transition move, and it is related to missing out on some of the efficiency "tricks" we were chatting about. So I'd be curious to see the move in real time + of course your TD data.

It potentially sounds like previously, your northward pump was bringing you more "over the top" of the brace whereas you are not bringing it either "on top" or "behind" the brace (possibly bad, depending on my paragraph above). I do think sometimes attention to the stride pattern can trigger/reshape the balance points too, so maybe that's part of what's happening (we could see).

1. I've used GG's move before and that's kind of how I think it works. I stopped because my lower body and balance were nowhere close to being able to make good use of it at the time. There's also a scary amount of potential power in that maneuver.
2. I don't know that this man thought of everything, but yes:


3. In general I don't think it's unusual for people to go through phases of unstable left or right or up or down releases relative to wherever their "ideal" ends up. Based on what I've seen out there, people tend to find sources of power before they can control them. A "WTF Richard" rightward release can still teach you something about an arm swing - but connecting it up to balance and the lower body can take a lifetime (or to whenever you stop fussing with it).


Next suggestion for you: what would it take for you to get your posture/booty into this transition move like Simon? Ignore the shot & angle, just talking about balance and posture again.

Pre-set the booty.


Adapt to Backhand.


Be tall or rising in the step before the X-step, then drifting and dropping into the plant in transition.

Profit (if done well).

Maybe it naturally helped me butt-lead more than usual because when the brace is a bit more westward it seems to be easier / more conducive to leading with the butt.