Form Help!

[DiscusMaximus]

Hi all,

Been a lurker for about a year or so now. Trying to learn enough where I can actually contribute. Many of you have been my coaches and I comb through these form review sections gleaning what nuggets of wisdom I can. Thank you all for contributing your time and energy into helping people like me to get better. You're doing more for the sport than you know. I hope as the sport grows more popular, paid coaching opportunities make themselves more available. I think that'd be a sweet gig.

I've been pretty dedicated to trying to consistently hit 400 feet. I practice more than I probably should and get out to the field several times a week. I feel like I have the frame to throw far (6'3-6'4, semi-lanky) and I'm reasonably athletic (never been high level at any sport I've tried, but never tried as hard as this at anything either), but try as I might I've plateaued around 350-375 depending on the day.

Pretty frustrated at my lack of progress. I keep tweaking the form, and while some changes seem to make the throw feel stronger, I'm not seeing any additional distance.

I've been working on various drills posted by Sidewinder, Beato, Blake_T, SlowPlastic, Hyzer Unibomber, etc., but I can't seem to quite put it all together.

All that being said, I've come seeking help as I can't quite seem to target the most important things for me to fix. If you're willing I've posted a few slow motion videos below of my most recent field day. The latest problems I've noticed is not pulling into the power pocket correctly (and therefore not really accelerating out of it) and rotating too early before the weight transfer is complete.

Throw 1: https://youtu.be/Tyk4hI0s9qk
Throw 2: https://youtu.be/begMgHG9Ql4
Several throws in a row of about 9-10 speed drivers (Long, skip in between throws): https://youtu.be/VO4hpnvy2kk


If anyone could help with any tips on how to address those two issues (and anything else you see I'm messing up!) I would really appreciate it.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Current Distances

For additional context, my putters go about 250-275, Mids about 290-310, 7 speeds about 330, and anything over a 9 about 350.

Might try to get out in the field today and film from behind.

 

[Icarus]

A few things I see at first glance:

First, your x-step is HUGE. You have a good bit of speed, but the step-behind stride is too long. You are also hopping onto the x-step foot, ending up with your center of gravity being well behind your x-step foot. Try slowing down and shortening the x-step.

Secondly, you appear to not be pulling the disc all the way to the chest when you throw. From this angle, it looks like the disc remains away from your body throughout the entire throw. In the power pocket, your forearm should be roughly parallel with your chest, but it looks like your forearm is angled away from your chest, i.e. your hand is further from your chest than your elbow even in the "power pocket". Release velocity is dependent on getting that forearm angle tight and making the "double hinge" work. By double hinge I mean that the throw is accelerated first by upper body rotation, secondly by very slight shoulder rotation, but MAINLY by the forearm whipping out from the body.

Try some hammer tosses - you won't be able to throw a hammer well and keep your arm away from your body.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thank you, Icarus, for taking a look and the reply!

You are absolutely right about the x-step, I've wondered in the past if my final step was too big. I thought maybe being tall it wasn't so bad as some pros seem to take a big one, but I didn't even think about the step before. Checked out some pros slow mo and they are all taking that step you reference way shorter than me. Will try to apply right away!

I definitely see what you are saying about pulling all the way into the chest. I'm struggling to get my body to pull it in rather than use my arm. Will try the hammer tosses to see if that helps find the feeling.

 

[Brychanus]

^Size of x-step is to help the center of gravity flow above and ahead of the step (1st attached pic).

You can swing/pull through more than one arm slot, the key idea is that the disc swings in toward your center of gravity, and then away toward the target (2nd attached pic). Like Icarus says you're getting poor leverage right now.

Your hand should be more "outside" the disc as you enter the pocket. In the third image there, see how your hand compares to Gibson's as he enters the pocket. His hand will lead the nose of the disc, pulling it around and adding quite a bit of late acceleration. Yours will only get speed from your arm moving the disc, but not that late acceleration spike because the "nose" of the disc is already leading your swing (3rd attached pic).

 

[DiscusMaximus]

That all makes a lot of sense, Brychanus. Thanks for the reply!

I got out in the field today to try and implement some of this. The smaller step was definitely helping with my center of gravity, but I was still really struggling to pull all the way into the pocket. I know what I'm supposed to do, but my body doesn't want to do it mid-swing. Feels like the forces keep me from tucking it all the way in...

Any tips for correctly pulling into the pocket with your hand positioned as you've shown?

 

[Icarus]

Discus,

A few things to try to get the feel, other than throwing something heavy. First, try Beto drill (YouTube). Second, when throwing, imagine you need to elbow someone in front of you in a fight, really focusing on "throwing" the elbow forward. Third, your off arm (left arm) remains far away from your body - try tucking your elbow against your body during the throw. Finally, it looks like you are very upright during the throw - try leaning forward slightly. By "forward", I mean hinging at the hips to lean a bit more over your toes. This will typically induce more hyzer to the throw.

Go out, try each of these a few times, film yourself during each, and then review the footage to see if anything "clicked" for that.

 

[Brychanus]

^As you are shortening your x-step, your center of gravity will be "leading" the swing better. Practice swinging the disc wide and get your posture/weight to "pull" it centripetally toward your body. Notice that Paul is allowing the disc to swing wide in the practice swing:

This is because Paul allows his tilted posture and CoG to "swing" the disc forward, leading with his shoulder forward toward the target. He coils up like getting ready to swing a heavy battering ram:

Right now you are standing too upright with the rear arm out behind you (see attached) and you have too much "s-curve" in your spine:

Get your arm nice and loose and let your posture tilt more in your backswing/reachback, and tiltas you downswing. Right now you are "sawing off" the swing path, and not getting the powerful "oblique sling" systems in your throw.

This one helped me get the posture:



As did Hammer X-step with the swing when taking strides:

 

[Icarus]

One last thing. Your throw is very "spinny". By that I mean after the throw your rear leg stays mostly straight and sweeps the grass in a wide circle. This is emblematic of standing too straight during the throw and spinning around a vertical, instead of tilted, axis.

You will notice that pros, when filmed from behind, will have the upper body leaning left and the rear leg kicking out rightwards for counterbalance. The entire throw is done on a non-vertical axis. See Simon Lizotte below, throwing an almost flat shot.

The "fix" for this is hershyzer/buttwipe drills to get the feeling of hinging at the hips during the x-step, which leans the upper body forward while keeping the center of gravity from tipping too much forward.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

You guys are awesome! Thanks so much for all the feedback. I was able to get out to the field today to try and implement some of Icarus' first comments. Didn't see Brychanus until after I got back, but will try to get out tomorrow to see if I can incorporate the tips into my form. Even just changing that step dramatically helped with my CoG and I felt like I was getting closer to the pocket. Still wasn't quite getting it in all the way though.

Below are some videos of today. Still doing most of what you are saying, but hopefully tomorrow's will be better.

Throw 1 from the side: https://youtu.be/F-TKYDy-QWs
Throw 2 from the side: https://youtu.be/vC1b850T0Qk
Throw 1 from behind: https://youtu.be/ovHfMjpErvE
Throw 2 from behind: https://youtu.be/Iy4knqUizGo

 

[sidewinder22]

Your disc never swings inward behind your elbow.
Your elbow is moving to the east/right and the wrist/disc swing out early.
Paul's elbow is moving outward to the west/left while the disc swings inward - hugging the disc instead of hugging himself/chest.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks for the help, Sidewinder! I've watched quite a few of your drill/analysis videos and found them quite helpful. I've seen this one before, but now that you've pointed it out I see how it applies to what I'm doing more.

I really seem to struggle to slot that elbow into the right place. Seems like maybe I need it to be a little higher and out it front of me at 90 degrees. To get force behind it to slam the door down (like I've felt I've read in a couple places) makes me want to pull the elbow in closer to my body. I think I may have been mistaking that as a way to generate more lag, but I'm obviously not getting my arm out in front of me to correctly get in the power pocket.

Do you think this a symptom of not using the off arm/shoulder to help get the other arm/shoulder into position? Or more of a misplacement of CoG?

Thanks again!

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks for the help, Sidewinder! I've watched quite a few of your drill/analysis videos and found them quite helpful. I've seen this one before, but now that you've pointed it out I see how it applies to what I'm doing more.

I really seem to struggle to slot that elbow into the right place. Seems like maybe I need it to be a little higher and out it front of me at 90 degrees. To get force behind it to slam the door down (like I've felt I've read in a couple places) makes me want to pull the elbow in closer to my body. I think I may have been mistaking that as a way to generate more lag, but I'm obviously not getting my arm out in front of me to correctly get in the power pocket.

Do you think this a symptom of not using the off arm/shoulder to help get the other arm/shoulder into position? Or more of a misplacement of CoG?

Thanks again!

 

[sidewinder22]

A bit of both. Your off arm is flailing out in the backswing and you end up tipping over/too upright going into the plant.

Practice this motion, should be similar to door frame drill leading with hips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90#t=9m44s

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Been Hard At Work

Hey guys,

It's been a few months and I've been working hard on my form since then. I feel like I understand the mechanics of both my body and the disc so much better since my last post, but I still am not seeming to find much more distance. The disc is coming out with way more snap and speed in a more consistent direction and shape, but I'm still barely throwing over 350.

I've snipped together a compilation of my throws over the past couple of sessions. https://youtu.be/suBHYxtyLuk

I partially think my control and use of angles is off, and I still struggle to keep the nose down, particularly on anhyzer or trying to throw upwards. I also think I maybe turn too far back, don't get my back leg off the ground to turn soon enough, and my coil is not consistently fully wound up due to probably taking too big of a last step.

Am I trending in the right direction since my last post and in my self analysis? Would love if you guys can point out anything glaring that might be contributing to lack of distance.

Thanks!

 

[bryantlikes]

I partially think my control and use of angles is off, and I still struggle to keep the nose down, particularly on anhyzer or trying to throw upwards. I also think I maybe turn too far back, don't get my back leg off the ground to turn soon enough, and my coil is not consistently fully wound up due to probably taking too big of a last step.

The disc is definitely coming out nose up which is a distance killer for sure. I'm not the expert here but things that stand out to me are:

1) That off arm is really swinging out wide. I think you would get a lot of benefit just by keeping it close to your left thigh. Try the spinning around like sw22 does here: https://youtu.be/W2eWfwpahfk?t=80

When the off arm swings like that it is going to pull your left shoulder around when really you want to use that left should as the handle of the whip, so you're leaking power there.

2) I think you need more side bend in your backswing which will help you to not tip over as much. SW22 posted this picture of Henna as a good example.

Also a good video on the subjectj:



I'd also suggest the Door frame drills, inside swing drills, etc. Drill, drill, drill.

3) Also looks like it is pretty cold which makes discs not fly as far.

 

[bryantlikes]

Had to copy/paste this from my form review since I think it is spot on.

2. Loading, tilt, side bend, and shift: Maybe you knew it was coming. It is inevitable - Door Frame Drill(s) for overall loading, tilt, side bend. There's just something about getting your body into positions and movements to try and rip a house down with your full weight that min/max the effort and force like nothing else. As we've seen in a number of recent threads, this can really help you sus out (a) if there are remaining sequence issues and (b) how your body fundamentally wants to move and shift with force. Even when I was developing a better OLD it didn't help my tilt/side bend/shift completely. DFD can. The feedback of the immovable object helps you develop unstoppable force. It's also a great flexibility drill if done correctly and frequently.

OLD = One Leg Drill (took me awhile to figure that out so I thought I'd clarify)

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks Bryant! I almost wrote in my self analysis about being too horizontal with my turn. You've confirmed for me I need to address this. Even just trying a few of the windmills here in my room I'm getting a different weight shift feeling. Will work on drilling this!

Do you think addressing this and tucking the arm will help with my nose down issues as well, or is that it's own project to work on?

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks Bryant! I almost wrote in my self analysis about being too horizontal with my turn. You've confirmed for me I need to address this. Even just trying a few of the windmills here in my room I'm getting a different weight shift feeling. Will work on drilling this!

Do you think addressing this and tucking the arm will help with my nose down issues as well, or is that it's own project to work on?

Agree w/ Bryant's pts, & wanted to add a couple more things for you to notice.

Regarding tucking in that rear arm, I think elbow-to-rear-hip is good enough for now. You need to keep working on what SW22 linked back in July.

I also wanted to mention a big issue in the throwing arm. Notice how Simon's throwing shoulder has his deltoid more over top of the shoulder joint heading into the release than you, and his elbow is leading the disc much more aggressively getting the disc swinging wide out in front of him into the release. Simon is getting a ton more behind the disc due to having his weight collected into his plant assisted by his rear arm and having the disc leveraging out from a more powerful arm path:

Working on that with one leg throws and hammer swings have given me the most mileage there.

It will get easier to clean up the weight shift too once you get some of these arm mechanics tighter.

 

[DiscusMaximus]

Thanks, Brychanus!

I hate that I didn't fully drill in what was pointed out last time, but when you're right you're right.

That picture really does highlight the closed shoulder. I've read and heard this was needed, but this image makes it clearer to me what that should mean at the hit.

Will get out there today and work on these!