FPO putting

[txmxer]

The JK rookie of the year is equally dumbest and most awesome thing ever.

Dumbest…and I understand because it's DGPT and she hasn't played a full tour season yet…strictly by definition.

Most awesome because she came back after that much time off and that much older and can still hang on the top level. I don't remember a ton of footage when she was playing the first time through, but if she can get a grip on her putting game she'd be a legit contender all day every day. Almost hurts to say, but at times her putting was extremely painful to watch. Just doesn't seem like her?

The FPO needs to improve putting in general. I don't know if it's pressure or what, but that's the weak link in FPO's entertainment value.

 

[Hampstead]

What? You don't enjoy seeing Cat miss bag on 15 footers?

 

[sidewinder22]

The FPO needs to improve putting in general. I don't know if it's pressure or what, but that's the weak link in FPO's entertainment value.

But isn't the "problem" with MPO, that putting is too easy and therefore not entertaining?

 

[ejvogie]

What? You don't enjoy seeing Cat miss bag on 15 footers?

If there's anyone on tour that needs to get out of their own head...

 

[Monkeypaws]

What? You don't enjoy seeing Cat miss bag on 15 footers?

Maybe she should incorporate a Pierce-like flick into her routine. Then at least we'd understand why she missed.

 

[sidewinder22]

If there's anyone on tour that needs to get out of their own head...

I think you have it backwards. Nikko needs to get out of his head - 100 pump fakes. Cat needs to get more into her head and think about the dumb thing she is about to do.

 

[wolfhaley]

"Putting is too easy for the pros"

-oldmoistballgag

 

[Nick Pacific]

The FPO needs to improve putting in general. I don't know if it's pressure or what, but that's the weak link in FPO's entertainment value.

It's a size and strength issue. There's a reason why the biggest arms are often the best putters. The women will always struggle on the green when you compare them to men. Secondly, I don't see it as a weak link in entertainment value whatsoever, if anything it adds to the drama that there are no gimmies.

I see the opposite in MPO, that the automatic nature of MPO C1 putting and lack of drama on the green is a weak link in my eyes, so it depends on who's watching.

 

[txmxer]

It's a size and strength issue. There's a reason why the biggest arms are often the best putters. The women will always struggle on the green when you compare them to men. Secondly, I don't see it as a weak link in entertainment value whatsoever, if anything it adds to the drama that there are no gimmies.

I see the opposite in MPO, that the automatic nature of MPO C1 putting and lack of drama on the green is a weak link in my eyes, so it depends on who's watching.

I was watching Simon's vlogmas putting video. Seems there was a lady in that league doing some pretty good work.

Of course that's not tournament pressure.—hence part of my statement that the pressure of competition may be part of the challenge.

But I'm not buying that these ladies can't putt from c1 range because of power.

 

[Nick Pacific]

.

But I'm not buying that these ladies can't putt from c1 range because of power.

That's exactly why they cannot putt as well as men from C1. It's relative to the physical size and strength of the fingers, hands, arms, and the tendons and ligaments of said body parts. The bigger and stronger all those are, the more automatic you become away from the basket. This is precisely why the best C1 putters, for the most part, are also big arms.

Sure you have outliers who putt lights out that don't throw super far but exceptions make the rule, and more often than not those guys (say MJ or Philo for example) aren't exactly weaklings either and had plenty of power in their younger days as well.

If you've got differing explanations I'm genuinely curious and all ears. Like I mentioned above I don't see this as a problem in FPO and in fact I think it's one more reason why FPO coverage is compelling and exciting, because there are no gimmies and anything can happen on the green.

 

[@CD-]

FPO golf currently centers around not taking over par strokes, some play more like MPO and go for the green no matter what but get burned by OB rate/putting woes. A lot of the field seems to adopt certain putting styles (pitch/loft over spin) or strategize layups from outer C1/C2 range to minimize comeback puts to just tap ins/short C1x. Some haven't developed the power/specific shots to reach the green and opt to play for par on longer/riskier holes.

Likely some risk aversion comes from not wanting to fall below the cash line/below a certain rating for those touring full time. I think we see those with more comfortable sponsorship levels playing more aggressively (greater variance in their results but higher overall PDGA rating).

 

[txmxer]

That's exactly why they cannot putt as well as men from C1. It's relative to the physical size and strength of the fingers, hands, arms, and the tendons and ligaments of said body parts. The bigger and stronger all those are, the more automatic you become away from the basket. This is precisely why the best C1 putters, for the most part, are also big arms.

Sure you have outliers who putt lights out that don't throw super far but exceptions make the rule, and more often than not those guys (say MJ or Philo for example) aren't exactly weaklings either and had plenty of power in their younger days as well.

If you've got differing explanations I'm genuinely curious and all ears. Like I mentioned above I don't see this as a problem in FPO and in fact I think it's one more reason why FPO coverage is compelling and exciting, because there are no gimmies and anything can happen on the green.

The size of hand/fingers I would buy a lot more than strength for C1x putting.

I went and looked at the top 10 womens stats in C1X putting on UDisc. The range is significant.

Your big arm argument in MPO needs to be backed up with something moderately close to data. My recollection for this past year is Uli was leading C1x putting at mid season.

I would accept power/strength argument in c2 range as being possible. But little to do with big distance.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I don't really buy the distance/strength thing. Not for C1X. Ohn Scoggins and Heather Young are the best putters in FPO and for the season, they had a better C1X percentage than McBeth, Heimburg, Dickerson, and KJUSA and had the same percentage as Hammes. And their weakness in their game is distance. If you look at the stats, Ohn left 24% of her drives short, HY left 22% short where Paige and Cat were at 11 and 13%.

 

[nothinbuttree]

I don't really buy the distance/strength thing. Not for C1X. Ohn Scoggins and Heather Young are the best putters in FPO and for the season, they had a better C1X percentage than McBeth, Heimburg, Dickerson, and KJUSA and had the same percentage as Hammes. And their weakness in their game is distance. If you look at the stats, Ohn left 24% of her drives short, HY left 22% short where Paige and Cat were at 11 and 13%.

I don't necessarily buy the distance/strength thing either. But, something doesn't seem right about the putting stats you mention. I didn't look them up, but even if true, I have to wonder if it's because often on the FPO side, a par 3 will be drive, layup, tap in, whereas on the MPO side it is often drive, C2 or C1 putt. Meaning the average C1X putt may be quite a bit farther on the MPO side. Not sure if that data is available, but would be interesting to look at if it is.

If there is a clear difference in MPO vs FPO putting, (again, I have not looked at any stats), and it is not just a physical strength thing (I don't think it is, not for C1X), other possibilities include (just tossing out ideas here) that men may be better able to deal with the pressure and/or have better long term stamina than women (over 2-4 hour rounds and 3-4 rounds in 3-4 days--even if just in the typical muscles used in putting).

I also wonder how much more time the 'average' top 50 MPO player spends on practice, conditioning, etc during the season and each week vs the average top 50 FPO player. Maybe the answer is none, but with many more MPO players able to financially devote their full time to disc golf vs the FPO field (which is changing recently), it seems reasonable that men might simply practice putting more overall. Being a muscle memory activity, this would tend to lead to better results.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Clearly, the baskets are too big for FPO. That's the problem.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I don't really buy the distance/strength thing. Not for C1X. Ohn Scoggins and Heather Young are the best putters in FPO and for the season, they had a better C1X percentage than McBeth, Heimburg, Dickerson, and KJUSA and had the same percentage as Hammes. And their weakness in their game is distance. If you look at the stats, Ohn left 24% of her drives short, HY left 22% short where Paige and Cat were at 11 and 13%.

Both Ohn and Heather should actually throw a lot farther than what they currently do. They both have subpar backhand form, Ohn especially, I just watched some coverage of her from the Arizona tournament and remember thinking that if she got a swing coach to fix her form she could probably throw A LOT farther. I also think neither one of those two is trying to throw super far in terms of physical effort as well, they purposely are throwing smooth and trying to stay on the fairway.

You also have to remember the ladies don't run putts anywhere near what the men do so those stats are somewhat apples to oranges, meaning Ohn and Heather often have tap ins after misses while the MPO field have long comebacks.

Which brings us to Paige. I don't care what the stats say, when it's game time Paige is the best FPO putter in the field. Also the biggest arm, which is no surprise given she's the strongest competitor. Again, the stats will never be favorable for her because she putts like MPO running everything and always has long comebacks. Both Ohn and Heather play very conservatively, which also boosts their C1X % because they generally don't miss long.

 

[biscoe]

That's exactly why they cannot putt as well as men from C1. It's relative to the physical size and strength of the fingers, hands, arms, and the tendons and ligaments of said body parts. The bigger and stronger all those are, the more automatic you become away from the basket. This is precisely why the best C1 putters, for the most part, are also big arms.

Sure you have outliers who putt lights out that don't throw super far but exceptions make the rule, and more often than not those guys (say MJ or Philo for example) aren't exactly weaklings either and had plenty of power in their younger days as well.

If you've got differing explanations I'm genuinely curious and all ears. Like I mentioned above I don't see this as a problem in FPO and in fact I think it's one more reason why FPO coverage is compelling and exciting, because there are no gimmies and anything can happen on the green.

I agree that upper body strength is the main reason the men putt better than the ladies in general. I feel like it extends to the approach game as well.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I don't necessarily buy the distance/strength thing either. But, something doesn't seem right about the putting stats you mention. I didn't look them up, but even if true, I have to wonder if it's because often on the FPO side, a par 3 will be drive, layup, tap in, whereas on the MPO side it is often drive, C2 or C1 putt. Meaning the average C1X putt may be quite a bit farther on the MPO side. Not sure if that data is available, but would be interesting to look at if it is.
.

Yep, this is 100% true in that it's difficult to compare C1X% for MPO vs FPO. It's a different game in that FPO putting is more in line with traditional golf (conservative play) while MPO is more like basketball (run everything). Just watch coverage and see for yourself, the MPO players aggressively run everything and constantly have longer comebacks. This is very apparent with C2 putting, where MPO players run them and have 30 footer comebacks while FPO players tend to try and put them close and have a lot of 12 -15 footers that boost C1X %.

This is why Paige's C1X stats don't tell the full story on how good she putts because she runs everything, aggressively and has lots of comeback misses which lower her stats. Same could be said of her tee game as well.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I agree that upper body strength is the main reason the men putt better than the ladies in general. I feel like it extends to the approach game as well.

Right. And it's not an exact science in that C1X% exactly follows distance, but more like a general theme, a correlation if you will. I think people who've been watching MPO for years just get used to the nature of C1X being so automatic and think the same thing should translate into FPO because it's only 30 feet, they should make everything mentality they can throw a disc that far, are having trouble wrapping their heads around this concept. There is nothing wrong with FPO putting or the women, they're simply not as physically strong as the men and this affects all aspects of throwing accuracy from every single distance measured, be it 10ft, 100ft or 400ft.

Think about that. The more effort it requires for you to throw a putt say 20 feet the more likely it will invite slight form errors, and just a fraction of a slip can affect putts when you extrapolate that over a season. I think this is the most important concept to understand when comparing FPO to MPO putting that many here are overlooking.

I think back to the 90s when everyone marveled at how good Kenny was at putting, but forgetting that unless Stokely also showed up for the event it was very likely that Ken was the big arm on the field. Fast forward to the early 2000s, everyone talked about how great of a putter Cam Todd was but forget that he had an absolute cannon for an arm and unless Stokely showed up to the event Cam was the big arm.

Fast forward to the past decade, the best putters consistently year after year have been Ricky, Paul, Simon, Eagle, Dickerson, Conrad, all guys with big distance. In FPO it's always been Paige being consistent on the green and making putts but her distance has always been apparent. I don't think she gets enough credit for how good she actually putts because of her aggressive play tends to lead to some sloppy mistakes but time and time again she has putted extremely well under all conditions and pressure.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I don't necessarily buy the distance/strength thing either. But, something doesn't seem right about the putting stats you mention. I didn't look them up, but even if true, I have to wonder if it's because often on the FPO side, a par 3 will be drive, layup, tap in, whereas on the MPO side it is often drive, C2 or C1 putt. Meaning the average C1X putt may be quite a bit farther on the MPO side. Not sure if that data is available, but would be interesting to look at if it is.

If there is a clear difference in MPO vs FPO putting, (again, I have not looked at any stats), and it is not just a physical strength thing (I don't think it is, not for C1X), other possibilities include (just tossing out ideas here) that men may be better able to deal with the pressure and/or have better long term stamina than women (over 2-4 hour rounds and 3-4 rounds in 3-4 days--even if just in the typical muscles used in putting).

I also wonder how much more time the 'average' top 50 MPO player spends on practice, conditioning, etc during the season and each week vs the average top 50 FPO player. Maybe the answer is none, but with many more MPO players able to financially devote their full time to disc golf vs the FPO field (which is changing recently), it seems reasonable that men might simply practice putting more overall. Being a muscle memory activity, this would tend to lead to better results.

So uDisc calls everything 5, 16, or 27 feet. So 5 feet don't count for C1X. I spot checked a couple of tournaments and HY hit around the same number of 27 footers as Dickerson. It seems to sort of balance out. MPO run more C2 putters, but they also park more shots. And are better at scramble and approach shots, so it seems to balance out.

There is definitely a clear difference in putting. Essentially every touring MPO play puts in the 80's. The top guys are in the high 80's and the guys we talk about slumping putt around 82 or 83%. People like Tattar and Cat are down in the 60's. Kona was at 54%, Korver was at 51%, Rebecca Cox was at 48%, Jennifer Allen at 38%. Kona bombs and has really fluid and athletic form in comparison to most of FPO. I have no idea why she can't have a stock staggered stance spin putt and be top 10 in FPO in putting.