Harder Courses for worlds?

[JC17393]

Yeah, but without those free parks, who would actually play that much disc golf? Cost (also include the fact volunteers and grants help get the work done) and availability are the main reasons disc golf is even on the radar at all. Another issue I see is there are some epic courses, but they don't have the facilities or would be a total pain to try and film play or have spectators, for example Sugaree in NC, amazing mountain course , would love to see some pros play that one, but how do you pull off the logistics of a major tournament there?

Did I say we had to get rid of free park courses? No, I didn't. I said we need to stop relying on them so heavily, and in the context of the thread, I figured it was understood I was referring to high level tournament golf rather than the sport overall. Ball golf has its low cost muni courses and the like that keep average people playing the game, but you don't see PGA tour events played on them. Disc golf can do the same, with park courses standing in for the muni tracks.

When it comes to elite tournament play, we need more Maple Hill type courses (by which I mean privately owned and unrestricted in how they can design and construct holes) and fewer Jones East/West. That's not to take anything away from Jones or any other park course, but the future of elite tournament play is not on those kinds of courses.

 

[gdub58]

Lots of good points being made here.

While I think we can all agree that it's unfortunate that we don't have enough appropriate venues willing/able to host World's, the concern about scores relative to par IMO is myopic. We are a different sport from ball golf, and I would argue that the game's growth could be positively impacted by appearing to be easy. A lot of people try ball golf, find it much too hard and frustrating (never mind too expensive and too formal) and quit. That doesn't happen much in disc golf. A lot of new players get into the game because of how easy and relaxed it is to enjoy.

There are many sports that appear too easy and would be horribly boring for spectators. How about Olympic trap shooting? Each competitor takes 125 shots, and in quickly looking at the results you had to make 95% of them just to qualify for the finals . That sounds like a blast to watch (oops).

Our sport is different. I love the sport because of those differences. And, like it or not, it will likely never generate the kind of money that many other sports do because of those differences. Think about how long the game has been around compared to other sports - I think disc golf is doing pretty well for being so young.

I can play for free whenever I want, there are many opportunities for competitive players like myself to be tested for a relatively small fee, and courses are being added at a remarkable rate. So what exactly is the problem?

The best two players in the world just had the two best scores in the opening round of the world's biggest tournament. Early indications are it is going to be a great event. So what exactly is the problem?

 

[Keller]

When it comes to elite tournament play, we need more Maple Hill type courses (by which I mean privately owned and unrestricted in how they can design and construct holes) and fewer Jones East/West. That's not to take anything away from Jones or any other park course, but the future of elite tournament play is not on those kinds of courses.

This ^^^^

The worlds should/need to be held at professionally designed courses for the purpose of testing the elite in the game. Also would be much more professional if they weren't in neighborhoods with dog walkers, housing developments and all the other street distractions.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Could care less,

Couldn't care less

 

[ScottyLove]

Guess what? Disc golf is WAY easier than ball golf.

No need to compare at all.

 

[esdubya]

Worlds is a different kind of tournament - it's more a marathon on (usually) above average courses. Basically, to host this scale of an event it takes a unique combination of local organization and number of above average courses in a relatively small area. It's not an easy thing to do, and many areas that host a worlds don't ever do it again. I think you take it for what it is, which is more of a week-long celebration of disc golf culture.

If you want an even that focuses more on challenging the top players, look at events like USDGC, and some of the top Euro events. This is where the organizers have the time and resources to setup one course so that each hole can have a challenging par AND a good scoring spread.

Just don't look for this at a Worlds - it's a different kind of thing.

 

[Rocaholic74]

Suggestion for next year's Worlds:

Warwick
Campgaw Reservation Blue/Black
Greystone

Let's see them play through the woods instead of always just bombing drives in somewhat open fields.

 

[Afropirg]

I think the guys in MPO are just that good. We are at the point golf was in the late 90's. The players and the equipment have advanced so much that they had to redesign courses to challenge the top players.

Here is a quote from Jack Nicklaus on Augusta National changes from Golf.com

"They had to make changes," six-time Masters champion Jack Nicklaus says. "With all the advances in equipment and the way the golf ball flies now. . . ." Nicklaus can get rolling pretty good when he starts talking about the way the golf ball flies now. His point was that the Masters people really had to lengthen and toughen the course. People have called it Tiger-proofing, but it's obviously much bigger than Tiger Woods. The 300-yard drive is standard now. Just about everybody has the 140-yard wedge shot in his bag. Nobody wanted golfers to come in and overpower Augusta National. Everybody wanted Woods and Phil Mickelson and the rest to face the same shots that Nicklaus and Palmer faced, which are the same shots that Sam Snead and Ben Hogan faced."

 

[Cgkdisc]

Worlds next year includes fully wooded Jackson at IDGC with SSA at least 65 and a new special layout at the Hippodrome where the eventual 2006 World Champ, Climo, shot a record 50 and then 65 on the same Hippo layout (good enough scoring spread?).

 

[1978]

Agreed. I know there is a desire to show off the distance drives, but a lot of courses are too easy for the top MPO pros. Smaller baskets would have to be imported; I'm not sure we want permanent smaller baskets for casual players and beginners, etc. The great equalizer is the wooded courses. Pros would still dominate, but their skills would be challenged more. Having said that... It is the point to play each other and not just the course. Who cares what McBeth shoots?... except relative to Wysocki, etc...

The second post said it all. Smaller baskets = less scoring separation. Drop ins are still drop ins and the best putters dont make the furthest putts. The size of the basket entices them to run putts near risky situations. While scores were -15 and -14 there werent 15 players with these scores, just the TOP 2 PLAYERS IN THE WORLD!!!! they are supposed to shoot the best. Im not a math expert but it looks like hte course was easy for the best but also created a separation suficient for this level of course. Its the same dumb arguement people made when tiger was tearing up ball golf courses...they all need to be longer. No. they dont, Tiger was just that great at that time. The 3Pt line doesnt need to be moved because Curry is shooting so many threes and they dont need to make the water more viscous because Phelps swims like a fish, or paddles smaller because the U.S. Womens 8 has won everything for 10 years. Just enjoy their dominance...

 

[1978]

Worlds next year includes fully wooded Jackson at IDGC with SSA at least 65 and a new special layout at the Hippodrome where the eventual 2006 World Champ, Climo, shot a record 50 and then 65 on the same Hippo layout (good enough scoring spread?).

Is a 50 and a 65 scoring spread or randomness

 

[Shamis]

I'd like to see more big tournaments played on wooded monster courses, but I can see how that isn't conducive to good spectating or filming.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There was some randomness in that 65, especially on the hogback hole where he took maybe a 7 going back and forth putting. That hole now has the Climo walking bridge after you've completed the hole.

 

[Pwingles]

Jones East is plenty hard. Those guys are just crazy good.

Not every course is Iron Hill.

this

Jones East and the golf courses are not easy

is Olpe being used for MPO?

 

[Cgkdisc]

No Olpe at all.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Suggestion for next year's Worlds:

Warwick
Campgaw Reservation Blue/Black
Greystone

Let's see them play through the woods instead of always just bombing drives in somewhat open fields.

My money would be on Brinster

 

[DanJon]

Couldn't care less

Cute.

 

[Steve West]

No, it only shows that "par" is defined and set in a way that results on those scores.

Only the second part of that is true. The actual definition "the score an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions" works fine. However, that doesn't seem to be the way TD's set par. They either use the par from the tee signs, or set par to be "everything is birdie-able".
Watch this video preview of Jones East, Replace any references to par with the implied score, apply the actual definition to what he says, and you get the real par.

2. "is gonna be a must-[2] hole.."
3. "Most people are probably going to be getting a 3."
4. "…really easy [3]."
6. "If I miss that tree, I've got a pretty good look at potential [2]. Lot of people going to be getting 3s or 4s."
7. "…then it gives you a 20 to 30 foot putt for your [2]."
…

Arguments about "par" have been made ad nauseum, and won't be settled here.

It's been settled. See above. Now, we just need to wait for TDs to decide that getting par right is an important-enough part of their job.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Cute.

no, correct.

 

[tbird888]