Help with reducing forehand flutter

[Trent B]

I've gotten pretty intimate with the game of disc golf this year. Really caught a bug for it, although I've been playing for about 2 years casually.
When i first picked up a disc this year after not playing all winter everything was pretty rusty. I've improved quite a bit in the past few months by playing 2-4 times a week. Putting is the biggest improvement switching from spin to push. Upshots, still a little inconsistent. Now forehand (RHFH) driving is almost where I can be satisfied with it. One thing about it still gnaws at me. More than half of the time my drives flutter upon release (OAT). It isn't as bad as when I first started this year, it's just a second of small flutter then the disc stabilizes. I can consistently get drives out 250-300' maybe 350' if I get lucky. The flutter is very irritating because I feel like I could be pushing 400' without it.
I use a stacked power grip. The way I've improved recently is moving the pad of my middle finger from the underside of the flight plate into the inside of the rim. This took away the extreme flutter I was getting and made it harder to roll my wrist and burn the disc into the ground.
I've attempted to attach some photos of my grip but I've never added photos on this site so we'll see. One is my old grip, one is my new grip(pad of finger on rim) the difference is subtle but it actually alters the way it sits in my hand too (palm more facing forward instead of up.) And the last photo is the top view of my new grip.
Any advice to eleminate the flutter would be great. Especially from someone who maybe conquered it themselves. I've been thinking of switching to the power grip where the middle finger doesn't change but the pointer finger is bent and scrunched on the rim halfway between middle finger and palm. I think it's the grip mcbeth uses. It just doesn't feel comfortable to do that with my pointer finger, but hey if it will better my chances of getting rid of the flutter for good I'll get used to it. Has this worked for anybody? Thanks for the advice in advance!

 

[sidewinder22]

I use the bent index power grip so both middle and index finger pads are pressed against the inside rim. My thumb pad squeezes more across the index finger and against the flight plate, rather than the index pad and rim.

It looks like you have the disc seated too far back into the web of your thumb/base of thumb and thumb pad pressed into the rim instead of flight plate. This is likely cause of wobble as the rim of the disc rests behind the big index knuckle joint and has to go across it on release.

 

[Trent B]

Nice observation. I will experiment with holding it a little farther out. It never feels like the disc makes contact there when leaving my hand, but maybe it does. Will also try my thumb scooted in a bit.

 

[armiller]

Here is a thread on sidearm disc wobble. I posted some pics of grip that help me. It mainly came from a background in ultimate, but this concept helps me get my wrist flexion aligned correctly with the disc's axis.

This first pic shows one grip...

And the second pic shows a small rotation of the disc in the hand. Notice the pinky is now a little farther below the flight plate. It feels different, too, like the disc is resting flat on top of your stacked grip. That can be a little awkward at first.

I'm still trying to figure out a good way to use that to teach, but rotating the disc/wrist in that fashion helps my alignment a lot. I think there's a tendency with high speed drivers to feel that the fingers need to be along the flight plate, and then the pinky is "higher up," like in the first picture. It kinda works because those high speed discs help stabilize your throw, BUT a grip fix can help you throw more smoothly and farther.

Hope that helps!

 

[Trent B]

My new grip is like your second picture except my thumb pinch point is a little closer to the edge of the rim which I am going to try moving in a bit like Sidewinder22 said.
I also catch myself gimping my follow through (especially later in rounds) more like cracking a whip than reaching for my target. I can tell I get a much smoother release if I reach out for the disc after it leaves my hand, but for some reason I start neglecting to do this, especially on like the back 9 of my second round.
Also for anyone having the same issue, I read last night that your follow through needs to match the angle and line of the release. So if you're flicking a flippy disc on a slight hyzer your follow through needs to continue on that angle. Seems I have a tendency to follow through flat no matter what. I will be working on this as well.
Thanks for the reply!

 

[slowplastic]

I agree that the disc looks too far back into your hand/thumb area. I had bad issues with wobbles with the bent index finger type of grip initially (like 60% of my shots would wobble), then I moved to the stacked grip and things worked out for me. What I realized is that I was holding the disc badly in the bent finger grip...not that that grip is bad itself...but I was angling my hand too forward rather than palm up and the disc was tipped downward relative to my forearm.

Hold the disc in your FH grip, and extend your arm out without cocking your wrist at all. See if your disc angle is aligned parallel to your forearm. If it is tipped down at all (usually outside edge will angle toward the ground) then adjust your finger angle within the rim (either more against inner rim or more against flight plate to change the angle of your palm). This should help the disc stay aligned to your forearm, which is the swing plane. If the leading edge of the disc is angled skyward then change your thumb placement and focus on a good pinch point near the snap portion of your throw to keep a nose down flight. I am now able to throw putters FH and even understable fairway drivers at full power without any wobble.

 

[Trent B]

Could someone post a pic that they feel is the proper grip and disc placement from the top view (RHFH). I'm Just holding a driver and trying to move the disc farther out of "thumb/hand crevice". Nothing really feels right? I guess. Just want a little visualization. Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[unclevince]

I've been gripping wrong too apparently. Just to clarify, where is the rim supposed to be in relation the first big knuckle at the base of the index finger? I've had that knuckle on the inside of the rim like the OP. Hard to see for sure in the pics.

 

[Trent B]

It looks like in relation to that big knuckle the disc is still slightly over it, but the knuckle is not inside the rim. Like the tapered edge of the disc is floating above the knuckle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like.

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct the tapered wing is resting/seated on top the big knuckle so the inside edge/very bottom of the rim is outside the knuckle.

 

[josephreese]

I've had that knuckle just outside the rim edge. It feels so strange to have it tucked inside there, but I'm going to try this the next time I take my discs out.

 

[Trent B]

So I made some adjustments today that were mentioned in here and the flutter is only present in maybe 20% of my drives! That's great, way better than it was. Throwing flat is pretty smooth and slight angles too. If I have to put a steep hyzer or anhyzer on it still flutters quite a bit. Not sure what's causing it. Maybe my follow through? I can live with it though because I don't have to throw those shots very often.
One thing that is bugging me is that after I made the adjustments for my forehand drive it doesn't "feel" like I'm putting alot of power behind the disc (my run up and arm speed are still the same). Despite this I am getting the same distance and better accuracy. The disc is finally coming out on the line I was aiming for. Predictability=confidence=lower scores. I'm stoked!
Has anyone adjusted their form on forehand and felt like they lost some power? Like I said the distance I'm getting is still around 300+/-. I guess I was just expecting to bomb them if I got rid of the OAT. Just feels like I'm not getting much torque on the disc. How did others push out of the 300'~ zone with forehand drives?

 

[Trent B]

Feels more like I'm finessing the disc more than putting a lot of speed on it.

 

[slowplastic]

Fixing OAT will definitely give you more consistency, especially in wind, but not necessarily more distance as you have found out. Make sure that you're getting a clean snap/swing through the disc, it may take a few sessions with the new grip. But really to get more velocity it will come down to weight transfer/hips and letting that leverage the arm. Lots of people lead with the arm a bit and it's very typical for people to throw ~300' FH by juicing it with the arm. You may have to video yourself from the side and compare to top pro's or post here.

 

[Trent B]

I will try to get a video of my throw next time I play. Maybe monday. Will have to get creative, I only have a smart phone and I usually play alone.

 

[EROPPER]

different size fingers and hands seem to make a difference in grips, IMHO, with my long skinny fingers and big hands, i've had the best luck with reducing the dreaded OAT, with a 1 finger grip, although sometimes I think if i could get the power grip sorted i could get better distance off the tee -

thank you all for the pics and tips, i may experiment more in the field with the power grip for FH drives

 

[deyo7]

So I made some adjustments today that were mentioned in here and the flutter is only present in maybe 20% of my drives! That's great, way better than it was. Throwing flat is pretty smooth and slight angles too. If I have to put a steep hyzer or anhyzer on it still flutters quite a bit. Not sure what's causing it. Maybe my follow through? I can live with it though because I don't have to throw those shots very often.
One thing that is bugging me is that after I made the adjustments for my forehand drive it doesn't "feel" like I'm putting alot of power behind the disc (my run up and arm speed are still the same). Despite this I am getting the same distance and better accuracy. The disc is finally coming out on the line I was aiming for. Predictability=confidence=lower scores. I'm stoked!
Has anyone adjusted their form on forehand and felt like they lost some power? Like I said the distance I'm getting is still around 300+/-. I guess I was just expecting to bomb them if I got rid of the OAT. Just feels like I'm not getting much torque on the disc. How did others push out of the 300'~ zone with forehand drives?

Good work, Trent. I'm just getting back in to working on my FH again (I declared 2017 year of bh and have forced myself to drive BH off tee since Jan1). But things seem to go best in terms of distance when I do/don't do the following and therefore maybe some things to be mindful of:

1. Reach back - not just at your side, which to me feels natural, but farther back and
2. Turn front shoulder at least slightly away (closed) from target
3. Prior to weight shift and hit: Rotate your hips laterally so that your right cheek heads toward target (to over exaggerate). Here, this is taken from Slowplastics "from behind" thread and I think it demonstrates well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKvJY6gDfg
"anchoring weight to leverage the disc" - SlowP. Read that thread for more details there.
4. Try planting with slightly closed front foot... and again related to this...
5. ... Don't let your front side/hip leak forward (planting with closed foot helps you keep your front hip closed/internally rotated). Instead, brace it and post up so to speak to allow your right hip to clear if that makes sense.
6. Lead with hips rather than arm.
7. Don't allow right/back leg to swing around to your right/outside. It should be driving momentum forward and should counterbalance behind you (example: https://youtu.be/79IwMHWa2ss)
8. Follow through with your arm like you already mentioned you are doing. this is what I believe I really need to work on, among other things... I might try your reach out for the disc idea...

SlowP or someone else with more experience, will you please correct these for both me and Trent's benefit if I'm off base on anything... Thank you!

 

[Trent B]

Good work, Trent. I'm just getting back in to working on my FH again (I declared 2017 year of bh and have forced myself to drive BH off tee since Jan1). But things seem to go best in terms of distance when I do/don't do the following and therefore maybe some things to be mindful of:

1. Reach back - not just at your side, which to me feels natural, but farther back and
2. Turn front shoulder at least slightly away (closed) from target
3. Prior to weight shift and hit: Rotate your hips laterally so that your right cheek heads toward target (to over exaggerate). Here, this is taken from Slowplastics "from behind" thread and I think it demonstrates well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKvJY6gDfg
"anchoring weight to leverage the disc" - SlowP. Read that thread for more details there.
4. Try planting with slightly closed front foot... and again related to this...
5. ... Don't let your front side/hip leak forward (planting with closed foot helps you keep your front hip closed/internally rotated). Instead, brace it and post up so to speak to allow your right hip to clear if that makes sense.
6. Lead with hips rather than arm.
7. Don't allow right/back leg to swing around to your right/outside. It should be driving momentum forward and should counterbalance behind you (example: https://youtu.be/79IwMHWa2ss)
8. Follow through with your arm like you already mentioned you are doing. this is what I believe I really need to work on, among other things... I might try your reach out for the disc idea...

SlowP or someone else with more experience, will you please correct these for both me and Trent's benefit if I'm off base on anything... Thank you!

I think #1 is my biggest problem. It feels so awkward to try to reach back farther than my shoulder. That's why I really wanna get a slo-mo video of myself to see just how far back I'm reaching.
The timing with my hips and weight transfer still needs some work, it feels off sometimes which usually results in an ugly throw.

 

[Trent B]

https://youtu.be/d69Z1TlnAwM
Scott Stokely sidearm clinic. I really like his form. I'd like to emulate him. He starts demonstrating his throw at 13:40, but I think the whole video is useful.