Hitting the mando tree

[Flick Maniac]

Is hitting the mando tree "entering the restricted area"?

If at all possible please provide source for official interpretation.

 

[krupicka]

804.01 If a throw part of a thrown disc clearly enters into a restricted space...

Bouncing off the object does not enter into the space.

 

[biscoe]

Bouncing off the object does not enter into the space.

I agree with you but it does raise these questions...

Is the plane not part of the space? (Extrapolation from the OB line being OB would lead one to think it is.) Which side/spot on the 3 dimensional object defines the 2 dimensional plane?

 

[Steve West]

I agree with you but it does raise these questions...

Is the plane not part of the space? (Extrapolation from the OB line being OB would lead one to think it is.) Which side/spot on the 3 dimensional object defines the 2 dimensional plane?

Ask the TD. There is no default, they have to define it.

 

[biscoe]

Ask the TD. There is no default, they have to define it.

The next time I see the 2 dimensional mando plane defined on one side by something other than a 3 dimensional object will be the first time.

 

[HyooMac]

This is why the wording of the Mando is so important that it be clear, like "to the left of..", "to the right of" and then the physical item that defines the edge of the Mando.

This gets stickier with Mandos defined by trees....does it mean the trunk? all branches? etc.

All reasons for why clear definition is important.

When I'm playing casually and there's a Mando sign on a tree, I treat the trunk as the Mando - but I also try to remember to clear my understanding with anyone I'm playing with before anyone throws...

 

[robdeforge]

Ask the TD. There is no default, they have to define it.

I forgot about this aspect, very good info. according to Disc Golf Rules School - Episode 7: Mandatory Routes:

Note: Previous editions of the rulebook included a clause to define the direction of the restricted space if the TD had not explicitly marked it. Under the current rules, however, the direction the restricted space extends from a mandatory object must be defined and marked by the TD using a painted line, string, or other marker.

is this in the competition manual? I wasn't able to find where this requirement is stated but I didn't look TOO hard

 

[Steve West]

The next time I see the 2 dimensional mando plane defined on one side by something other than a 3 dimensional object will be the first time.

Except you won't see it because a 2 dimensional object is smaller than the wavelength of light.

That's why the TD needs to say more than "da tree". Center? Farthest from the tee? Which side of which branches? Does it lean forward or back like the tree does? There is no universal standard which could be applied in the same way to all mandos defined by trees.

One innovative permanent solution I've seen is a string between the mando tree and another tree, about 12 feet off the ground. The plane is under and above that string (and beyond). The tree itself does not need to be part of that definition.

 

[coupe]

That's why the TD needs to say more than "da tree". Center? Farthest from the tee? Which side of which branches? Does it lean forward or back like the tree does? There is no universal standard which could be applied in the same way to all mandos defined by trees.

Call me cynical, but I rather suspect that the VAST majority of TDs will simply continue to identify the mando object as they've always done because they don't realize that they need to specifically define the location on the mando object that the mando plane begins or ends, and the VAST majority of players won't think to as the TD where the mando plane begins or ends, because they're not aware that the mando object itself may not be part of the mando.

 

[araytx]

I agree with you but it does raise these questions...

Is the plane not part of the space? (Extrapolation from the OB line being OB would lead one to think it is.) Which side/spot on the 3 dimensional object defines the 2 dimensional plane?

Gotta see the picture to reply -- and even then no guarantees

 

[Steve West]

Call me cynical, but I rather suspect that the VAST majority of TDs will simply continue to identify the mando object as they've always done because they don't realize that they need to specifically define the location on the mando object that the mando plane begins or ends, and the VAST majority of players won't think to as the TD where the mando plane begins or ends, because they're not aware that the mando object itself may not be part of the mando.

...and the vast majority of the time it won't matter.

Almost all throws will either pass the mando on the good side, or go way beyond the mando on the bad side.

For edge cases, if it's not clear enough to get a majority of the group to agree, let the thrower pick. The players near (but not clearly partially or fully across) a mando plane are going to cost themselves a throw to get around the good side of the tree, or cost themselves a penalty throw to go to the drop zone.

 

[coupe]

...and the vast majority of the time it won't matter.

Almost all throws will either pass the mando on the good side, or go way beyond the mando on the bad side.

For edge cases, if it's not clear enough to get a majority of the group to agree, let the thrower pick. The players near (but not clearly partially or fully across) a mando plane are going to cost themselves a throw to get around the good side of the tree, or cost themselves a penalty throw to go to the drop zone.

John's question is specifically addressed to dealing with edge cases, so the fact that the majority of throws will either clearly make or miss the mando is irrelevant.

And, no, players whose discs end up near but not clearly across the mando plane are not going to cost themselves a throw if their disc hits part of the mando object, such as a tree limb, and kicks/drops and rolls to the good side of the mando object because if the TD fails to specify where on the mando object the mando plane intersects the mando object, the overwhelming majority of throwers are going to claim the didn't miss the mando. Furthermore, on such edge cases, the group is going to give the thrower the benefit of doubt because they "weren't watching," or "couldn't tell," or "don't want to harsh the group vibe."

 

[sidewinder22]

What about passing thru the tree?

Obviously A makes it, and B doesn't, but what about C, D, and E?

 

[Rastnav]

What about passing thru the tree?

Obviously A makes it, and B doesn't, but what about C, D, and E?

Gotta love an actual drawing.

The real question to me is not "what happens if you hit the mando", but rather "how should a TD define a mando given the existing rules"

So, as an example, if the mando is defined as the left edge of the tree trunk, and not the tree trunk itself, anything hitting the tree trunk won't be past the mando unless it actually passes on the right side of the trunk. You don't have to worry about the plane of mando except for one one that lands near the plane. Something that hits the trunk and bounces back and to the right won't have passed the plane.

How to treat the branches above the tree depends a lot on the specific mando tree and hole, I would think. And that's going to have be on the TD.

 

[araytx]

What about passing thru the tree?

Obviously A makes it, and B doesn't, but what about C, D, and E?

To me only A and C are good. The other three have penetrated the restricted space and have missed the mando

 

[BillFleming]

Where are D and E stuck in the tree? If they haven't passed the trunk, they might be good...it's a situation where I'd have to see the actual position to make a call as the disc might be short of the mando.

 

[Rastnav]

To me only A and C are good. The other three have penetrated the restricted space and have missed the mando

Well, doesn't this all depend on exactly how the TD has defined the mando?

For instance if the TD has merely defined the mando as "left of the marked tree", how can you consider C to be good? This also brings into question if there is a difference between one shot that ticks the leaves of the tree and another that passes to the left of the main trunk (where the mando mark is) but right of a vertical/Y branch

Although we have a drawing representing the branches, stems and leaves as if they are a ball, they obviously are not. This is why, to me, the most important thing is to clearly define the mando boundary as precisely as possible, rather than leaving it up each card to attempt to divine the intended boundary.

 

[araytx]

Well, doesn't this all depend on exactly how the TD has defined the mando?

For instance if the TD has merely defined the mando as "left of the marked tree", how can you consider C to be good? This also brings into question if there is a difference between one shot that ticks the leaves of the tree and another that passes to the left of the main trunk (where the mando mark is) but right of a vertical/Y branch

Although we have a drawing representing the branches, stems and leaves as if they are a ball, they obviously are not. This is why, to me, the most important thing is to clearly define the mando boundary as precisely as possible, rather than leaving it up each card to attempt to divine the intended boundary.

Well, I obviously agree with all of that, especially the key point that "it depends" how the TD had defined the mando. But there has to be a default, in case a TD is ambiguous or not clear enough. And based upon that, I made my decision as if it were a vertical plane up & down from the point of the mando arrow — because that's all I had to go on. Otherwise, it's always gonna be "we don't have enough information."

But good comment.

 

[coupe]

But there has to be a default, in case a TD is ambiguous or not clear enough.

Nope:

Ask the TD. There is no default, they have to define it.

 

[Rastnav]

Well, I obviously agree with all of that, especially the key point that "it depends" how the TD had defined the mando. But there has to be a default, in case a TD is ambiguous or not clear enough. And based upon that, I made my decision as if it were a vertical plane up & down from the point of the mando arrow — because that's all I had to go on. Otherwise, it's always gonna be "we don't have enough information."

But good comment.

Well, the decision is essentially trivial if the TD defined the mando that way (or any way that is sufficiently precise).

The more interesting question is what the call should be if the TD said that the mando is "left of the marked tree" and it passes through the branches above, or ticks leaves

You also have question of what happens if it hits a branch to the right of the trunk and kicks back and left. Has it entered into restricted space?

All easy to solve with the right mando definition, but most mados aren't defined that precisely.