How Simon Lizotte Throws So Far

[timothy42b]

I saw some things so I wanted to add in my stuff on video.

Its' a tad long though and..

This was interesting. Thanks.

What I took from this is that there are some really significant differences between a standstill slash one-step throw and an X-step. They may be more different than alike.

Overthrow Disc Golf had a recent segment on upshots saying they are very different from a drive, and at the Stokely clinic I attended he said he thought eventually all the pros would have two different backhand throws, one for power drives and one for others.

I'm still in the throw-everything-from-standstill stage.

 

[Sheep]

This was interesting. Thanks.

What I took from this is that there are some really significant differences between a standstill slash one-step throw and an X-step. They may be more different than alike.

Overthrow Disc Golf had a recent segment on upshots saying they are very different from a drive, and at the Stokely clinic I attended he said he thought eventually all the pros would have two different backhand throws, one for power drives and one for others.

I'm still in the throw-everything-from-standstill stage.

That overthrow video on upshots ...

While I don't disagree with all of it.

I disagree with a lot of it.

Especially advice like "throw the flippiest thing you have nose up for upshots"

Does no pro at all.
Or good player.

Yeah.... thats some experience talking right there.

The style of upshot he's trying to teach isn't a bad one. It's putting style oriented, but there is so much more than that one thing.

Maybe i'm just not into the stokley style method of disc golf where "this is the only way you should do things, my way"
And that just the vibe i got from the video.

Stokley is a good teacher, but he is only looking for you to do things his way.

And I"m not looking at stuff like that when teaching.
I'm looking at enjoyment and comfortable actions that work with our body and body types.

As everyone doesn't have levers that move the same.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Can you do an analysis of Emerson's form with focus on how he gets so much power with smaller levers?

To my untrained eye his form looks similar to Calvin's in that they curl the wrist a bit, keep the disc close to the chest with the elbow bent with the reach back only extending the elbow a little bit and the disc coming up to the back shoulder with the elbow still dropped until pulling into the power pocket.

It's interesting that Emerson can still get lots of distance without much arm extension and with shorter levers.

 

[Brychanus]

Can you do an analysis of Emerson's form with focus on how he gets so much power with smaller levers?

To my untrained eye his form looks similar to Calvin's in that they curl the wrist a bit, keep the disc close to the chest with the elbow bent with the reach back only extending the elbow a little bit and the disc coming up to the back shoulder with the elbow still dropped until pulling into the power pocket.

It's interesting that Emerson can still get lots of distance without much arm extension and with shorter levers.

I like these thought experiments so here we go.

First, always watch the way folks' entire bodies move, not just the degree of curl of the wrist etc. You get more out of compact actions the more efficient the whole sequence is. Emerson still gets his core/slings coiled and loaded with the throwing shoulder all the way behind the rear hip and his posture closed off as he shifts to plant like everyone else as he starts to add some heat.





1. He's getting a lot out of his aggressive approach to teeing off. How? He has a few form quirks, but in general he has incredible balance, is quick and light on his feet, moves his body mass very aggressively down the tee, and has one of the more epic crushes/impacts landing in the plant I can think of.



2. His form is making exceptionally good use of braced tilt/tilted axis like other form maximizers with very little posture collapse, jamming, or bunching among body parts or against gravity:

... and has exceptional flexibility committing his mAss leading all the way through the shot.


3. Can shorter people have still have "good" levers? Always pay attention not just to absolute height, but levers relative to height and the lever sequence. Emerson is short but it looks like he has excellent levers relative to his height (positive "ape index") and an excellent lever sequence. Look how long his hands and forearms are relative to his upper arms and shoulders. You get exponential gains from good lever sequences even if you don't have a very large wingspan.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Thanks!

which form do you admire most among the shorter players who throw far?

 

[Nick Pacific]

I like these thought experiments so here we go..


3. Can shorter people have still have "good" levers? Always pay attention not just to absolute height, but levers relative to height and the lever sequence. Emerson is short but it looks like he has excellent levers relative to his height (positive "ape index") and an excellent lever sequence. Look how long his hands and forearms are relative to his upper arms and shoulders. You get exponential gains from good lever sequences even if you don't have a very large wingspan.

View attachment 321119

Kat Mertsch comes to mind instantly. She has the most impressive ape index in FPO. She isn't particularly tall (maybe 5'7?), but take a look at those levers. No wonder she can crush really far with technique/form that's not exactly perfect, ala Emerson.

 

[blayed]

Paige Pierce is like 90lbs soaking wet and has thrown 500ft in a distance comp before. IMO I think she has by far the best form and mechanics in FPO ...

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks!

which form do you admire most among the shorter players who throw far?

I guess it depends how short/far, but among shorter players for each division off the top of my head:

1. FPO: Paige Pierce (5'5''). Hard think of a "pound for pound" better example. Everyone can learn something from her form.

2. MPO: Emerson Keith is up there. More "horizontal": 5'10'' Gibson (sans knee hyperextension). 5'7'' McBeth. Notice all of those guys have truly excellent wingspans/ape indices/lever sequences.

For most mortals, IMO 5'10'' Prime Ulibarri when he wasn't as stuck over the rubber really is a good case study in form since his levers look much more normative.

5'10'' Garrett "Gravity Hammer" Gurthie. Still pretty darn good levers, but really also using a lot of neat form tricks put together to get what he's got with his very springy/athletic but huskier body type.

3. Doing the most with what he's got and it's not a coincidence award: Sidewinder (5'7'', ape index/lever sequence not ideal).

4. Oopsie, almost forgot Mr. Efficiency Steve Brinster, 5'10'' 6' wingspan. He's somewhere on the Gurthie/Isaac Robinson end of the spectrum and is really maxing out many efficiency exploits.

Kat Mertsch comes to mind instantly. She has the most impressive ape index in FPO. She isn't particularly tall (maybe 5'7?), but take a look at those levers. No wonder she can crush really far with technique/form that's not exactly perfect, ala Emerson.

lol that's crazy. I hadn't realized it was that big before.

 

[blayed]

Kat Mertsch comes to mind instantly. She has the most impressive ape index in FPO. She isn't particularly tall (maybe 5'7?), but take a look at those levers. No wonder she can crush really far with technique/form that's not exactly perfect, ala Emerson.

That's why I dont even agree 100% that her form/technique is "not exactly perfect". Maybe its perfect for her body. If you look at her PDGA page and her earnings and wins this year it certainly delivers results ... can't ask for more than that

 

[Sheep]

Paige Pierce is like 90lbs soaking wet and has thrown 500ft in a distance comp before. IMO I think she has by far the best form and mechanics in FPO ...

She has some of the most violent form in FPO, I'd not call it good.

Its Okay, but not "good"

We've had this discussion before though.

I think she uses what she has body wise to its full potential.

And I think that when it comes to form, while there are things we think of as "good" or "great," those things might not necessarily be right for what you need to make it work.

She's working more on being explosive if you want to look at it that way, not necessarily straight technique which longer lever players have to work with.

Shorter lever players have to be explosive, longer lever players have to focus more on keeping in time/line because big floppy levers to drag around.

So back on the topic of Emmerson per say. While I am not overly fond of his play style. Guys like him are absolutely amazing because of what they are doing explosive wise with their smaller frames/levers to generate the power.
Because they dont ahve the mechanical advantage of just pure leverage to throw.

 

[Sheep]

5'10'' Garrett "Gravity Hammer" Gurthie. Still pretty darn good levers, but really also using a lot of neat form tricks put together to get what he's got with his very springy/athletic but huskier body type.

Possibly important to point out that Gurthie used to be WAAAAY larger guy.
His form developed from him trying to work around his size/weight issue.

He's been throwing a country mile since he was like 12 though figuring out how to use his body and work around it.

 

[Sheep]

That's why I dont even agree 100% that her form/technique is "not exactly perfect". Maybe its perfect for her body.

This is the most important thing period right here. Full Stop.

We are constantly in search of this "perfect form" thing. When its what is perfect for your body, or right for your body.
I've even got a video on it on youtube on my channel talking about it for at least 10 minutes I think.
Whopping 26 views.
Why? Cause nobody wants to hear any of it. They want magic pills.
Okay, Apparently I deleted that one, cause nobody was watching or engaging in it.
I'm used to talking to myself though, its all good.

This is why pro emulation is bad. This is why a lot of coaching video's are bad. This is why a lot of coaches are bad. This is why a lot of people need to be hit with a yard stick trying to coach on the internet.
They dont understand this ONE concept.

This is why I actively shit on big youtubers and other people about coaching. They are trying to teach a one size fits all template onto players, or compare them to pro players. "here, let me do this form check and show you how much you suck vs drew gibson." Why the fuck are you even trying to teach like that? It's so back asswards. Stop comparing people to others and try and figure out what that person needs to make their swing their own. To get them in time and into the key positions and get the disc out properly.