thirtydirtybirds
Double Eagle Member
Profit?! I bet the entry fee that so many people DONT pay barely covers property tax and gas for the mower.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
How to Confront a Pay to Play Abuser?
- Thread starter mmueller
- Start date
If you are running a private disc golf course that's losing money, you really should be reporting it. You can offset other income with your losses and lower your taxes.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,780
^ The man makes an excellent point.
Be careful with that. You can write off business losses if you're trying to make money---but if you don't make a profit some years, the IRS can consider it a hobby, not a business.
Good point. However even if the IRS denies your deductions, you still ought to have an LLC set up just for liability reasons.
I'm disappointed by the handful of replies criticizing a clearly reasonable and rational course owner for asking for help. Busch league.
I wouldn't go a passive-aggressive route. I know for me personally it feels like disrespect when someone is passive-aggressive with me, rather than just talking about an issue straight up and solving it. Now, I get that this other guy is more disrespectful, but like momma always says, "Two wrongs don't make a right."
My advice: don't sink to his level, speak to him directly, speak in facts and limit any assumptions (i.e. if you say he plays 5x a week, don't go after him saying "you NEVER pay" - go to him and say "I've noticed that you play quite often, and I'm happy to see you out here enjoying it, but the amount of money I count on days that you play oftentimes doesn't add up"). This gives him an opportunity to explain himself. If he straight up lies, ask him to leave and not return. If he admits it, explain why you charge, etc. and ask him to comply.
Do everything you can to limit the "he said, he said" nature of the discussion (i.e. count the till before and after he arrives, I'm sure there's a discernible pattern to it), and then speak directly.
Best of luck, I have a dream one day to own land with a course (or complex of courses) on it...so I'm feeling the pain with you of people who take advantage.
I wouldn't go a passive-aggressive route. I know for me personally it feels like disrespect when someone is passive-aggressive with me, rather than just talking about an issue straight up and solving it. Now, I get that this other guy is more disrespectful, but like momma always says, "Two wrongs don't make a right."
My advice: don't sink to his level, speak to him directly, speak in facts and limit any assumptions (i.e. if you say he plays 5x a week, don't go after him saying "you NEVER pay" - go to him and say "I've noticed that you play quite often, and I'm happy to see you out here enjoying it, but the amount of money I count on days that you play oftentimes doesn't add up"). This gives him an opportunity to explain himself. If he straight up lies, ask him to leave and not return. If he admits it, explain why you charge, etc. and ask him to comply.
Do everything you can to limit the "he said, he said" nature of the discussion (i.e. count the till before and after he arrives, I'm sure there's a discernible pattern to it), and then speak directly.
Best of luck, I have a dream one day to own land with a course (or complex of courses) on it...so I'm feeling the pain with you of people who take advantage.
That is the most level headed and reasonable posts yet.
What the heck are you doing on DGCR?!
Thieves don't understand reason and always justify their actions in their own eyes. Call up a few buddies; e.g. Bubba and Guido and confront the trespasser and inform him he is not welcome and banned for life. When word of the lifetime ban gets around most all people will start paying up.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Or maybe using Guido the Killer Pimp will make the locals not want to play it at all...
Last edited:
DiscAnarchy
Par Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2016
- Messages
- 162
Calling the cops is the worst possible idea.
jeffmonty
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2010
- Messages
- 2,413
This is how they handle it in Milwaukee.
http://komonews.com/news/offbeat/gr...-bill-pays-up-after-online-shaming-05-07-2017
http://komonews.com/news/offbeat/gr...-bill-pays-up-after-online-shaming-05-07-2017
The folk shaming this guy early in the thread for what he's doing are silly - if he wasn't going to name names here, and was going to try to be discrete - treat it for what it is: someone asking legitimately for advice and respect the fact that he's *not* taking action rashly.
I agree with directly talking to the guy and won't bother adding to the already good advice being shared. I understand singling him out as a very obvious abuser as well, but it would make sense to use a level-headed, warm "confrontation" approach with other course users as well.
In general, I think this reflects a change in the disc golf world. I.e. traditionally courses have not been pay to play, at least the ones in public spaces. However, private (or pay to play) courses are continuing to rise because they tend to assuage our ever growing thirst for better and more challenging courses. Unless there aren't many other courses in the area, there's apparently something that's better about your course that keeps him coming back.
I've played a couple privately owned courses recently and was very impressed by the quality of each (check out the Lodge near Pawhuska, OK; also Shawshank in Huntsville, TX). Top notch and memorable courses, both with very friendly owners who made my visit even more positive.
Pay to play courses on state/county/city parks (with park entry fees) feel a little different to me, but I can't say I've ever regretted paying for some good disc golf.
In general, I think this reflects a change in the disc golf world. I.e. traditionally courses have not been pay to play, at least the ones in public spaces. However, private (or pay to play) courses are continuing to rise because they tend to assuage our ever growing thirst for better and more challenging courses. Unless there aren't many other courses in the area, there's apparently something that's better about your course that keeps him coming back.
I've played a couple privately owned courses recently and was very impressed by the quality of each (check out the Lodge near Pawhuska, OK; also Shawshank in Huntsville, TX). Top notch and memorable courses, both with very friendly owners who made my visit even more positive.
Pay to play courses on state/county/city parks (with park entry fees) feel a little different to me, but I can't say I've ever regretted paying for some good disc golf.
A few years ago a buddy and I checked out Selah Ranch and met Dave the owner at the pro-shop to pay green fees. Hanging up behind the counter were two mug shots of two guys with the captions saying... caught stealing discs out of the lake. I thought it was a good way to get the point across.
dtuba
Birdie Member
opcorn:OP Grateful, Just Overwhelmed By Response
The confrontation has taken place, I'll report on that separately.
At first I was concerned to see that the first response to my OP was a troll, but much of the advice that followed was solid gold, so thanks to everyone that helped out. I did say that Haybro Redtail was remote (and yes it is my property, in my 40 acre back yard so to speak), but perhaps should have been more specific. Oddly, this April was a record month for the course with 40 - 50 players - odd because nobody has ever played the course in April before, and very few in May. Average traffic during the season is 30 - 40 players a month June through October. The only thing more remote than Redtail is the concept that such a venture could make a profit given the current state of Disc Golf today. Perhaps a few years down the road, as the sport grows in $s and numbers, and if the course makes it into the top 5 for Colorado, which it has the potential to do with continued effort, that may change. The course is 25 minutes from a popular ski town which brings in a bunch of people in the summer. What is the most critical to the course's future right now is growth.
It takes two industrial size Bobcats, a backhoe, a concrete mixer, and a pile of commercial yard equipment to build, improve and maintain a 40 acre course on the rough mountain terrain. P2P fees don't even cover equipment repairs that result from damage while in use on the course, much less maintenance, fuel, capital expenses, and all that. I do have other business reasons to help justify the madness, but my expectations are that this will be a "research" project for some time.
The reward I get from allowing other people to play the course is that it means a lot more to me that other people can enjoy it. I can comfortably say that it is a unique experience that most hard core DG players wouldn't want to miss (the exception is players that can't leave flat, open, park courses). The course does speak for itself; it grows admirers regularly and my philosophy is that that should be the first thing that drives people to honor the honor system. Thanks to JTacoma03 for helping me not to loose track of that.
More aggressive measures, like cops, disabling or toeing a car, and even signs to make people feel guilty for not paying don't agree with my idea of an honor system, they make the course much less enjoyable, and they could hurt the prime objective, which is growth. People from around the country play Redtail, thanks to online exposure, and there is a darn good chance that many of those people, even when they don't pay to play go home to tell a bunch of other people how great the course was, some of whom will come back, pay, and play. Once enough people start playing to justify a part time attendant and insurance, that growth will have paid off.
But then take one guy who I find out in my back yard regularly without paying and the only growth he brings to the course is more buddies who don't pay (spot on joecoin). That abuse can't be ignored.
If you've had the stamina to make it this far, here is another interesting development. It became apparent that some people were uncomfortable with putting money in the fee pole without putting it in something and writing their name on it. So I printed up donation envelopes with a course logo and official and all and it's looking like a bigger percentage are now paying using the envelope.
The confrontation has taken place, I'll report on that separately.
At first I was concerned to see that the first response to my OP was a troll, but much of the advice that followed was solid gold, so thanks to everyone that helped out. I did say that Haybro Redtail was remote (and yes it is my property, in my 40 acre back yard so to speak), but perhaps should have been more specific. Oddly, this April was a record month for the course with 40 - 50 players - odd because nobody has ever played the course in April before, and very few in May. Average traffic during the season is 30 - 40 players a month June through October. The only thing more remote than Redtail is the concept that such a venture could make a profit given the current state of Disc Golf today. Perhaps a few years down the road, as the sport grows in $s and numbers, and if the course makes it into the top 5 for Colorado, which it has the potential to do with continued effort, that may change. The course is 25 minutes from a popular ski town which brings in a bunch of people in the summer. What is the most critical to the course's future right now is growth.
It takes two industrial size Bobcats, a backhoe, a concrete mixer, and a pile of commercial yard equipment to build, improve and maintain a 40 acre course on the rough mountain terrain. P2P fees don't even cover equipment repairs that result from damage while in use on the course, much less maintenance, fuel, capital expenses, and all that. I do have other business reasons to help justify the madness, but my expectations are that this will be a "research" project for some time.
The reward I get from allowing other people to play the course is that it means a lot more to me that other people can enjoy it. I can comfortably say that it is a unique experience that most hard core DG players wouldn't want to miss (the exception is players that can't leave flat, open, park courses). The course does speak for itself; it grows admirers regularly and my philosophy is that that should be the first thing that drives people to honor the honor system. Thanks to JTacoma03 for helping me not to loose track of that.
More aggressive measures, like cops, disabling or toeing a car, and even signs to make people feel guilty for not paying don't agree with my idea of an honor system, they make the course much less enjoyable, and they could hurt the prime objective, which is growth. People from around the country play Redtail, thanks to online exposure, and there is a darn good chance that many of those people, even when they don't pay to play go home to tell a bunch of other people how great the course was, some of whom will come back, pay, and play. Once enough people start playing to justify a part time attendant and insurance, that growth will have paid off.
But then take one guy who I find out in my back yard regularly without paying and the only growth he brings to the course is more buddies who don't pay (spot on joecoin). That abuse can't be ignored.
If you've had the stamina to make it this far, here is another interesting development. It became apparent that some people were uncomfortable with putting money in the fee pole without putting it in something and writing their name on it. So I printed up donation envelopes with a course logo and official and all and it's looking like a bigger percentage are now paying using the envelope.
Last edited:
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Glad to hear that you were able to resolve the issue in a manner that makes you happy. Good luck in the future getting the growth you're looking for. Thank you for posting an update. I wasn't sure if you'd return or not. Hopefully this can help the next private course owner looking for similar help.
Good to hear you printed up envelopes, but I actually thought you were already doing that (based upon the donation pole you had). This is exactly the way parks do it and it seems to work pretty well for disc golf and other pay-for-use activities (cross country skiing, etc.).
Good luck with the course, it does sound like a labor of love and a great destination course for anyone in the area.
gradus
Par Member
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
-
-
HOD 6/10/2024: Cane Ridge - Advanced Course Hole #4 Nashville, TN
- Latest: fishballer06
-
