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How to Confront a Pay to Play Abuser?
- Thread starter mmueller
- Start date
Sounds like you need to police the course more to ensure people are paying. And add some wording indicating there is $25 fine for not paying, and if they don't pay the fine they will be permanently banned -- and enforce it. That should take care of most of the abusers.
The problem is the abusers know there currently are no consequences to not paying. Until that changes and word gets out freeloaders won't be tolerated, the status quo of not paying will continue.
The problem is the abusers know there currently are no consequences to not paying. Until that changes and word gets out freeloaders won't be tolerated, the status quo of not paying will continue.
Majorly pathetic. Especially for the locals who give less support to a course in their backyard, than someone who likely will only play it one time.
Is this course on private property?
Why are you singling out one person, when as you say, the majority of people don't pay?
Have you actually spoken with him face-to-face rather than passive-aggressively leaving notes on his car?
Sounds like you need to enforce this across the board, for everyone who doesn't pay.
Perhaps this guy knows that you don't seem to actually do anything about it, since as you said yourself, the majority of locals don't even bother to pay.
Ban everyone who doesn't pay, for a month, for the first infraction.
Perma-Ban for second infraction.
Or just shut the course down for awhile and only allow season pass holders.
At our local private course, you have to be a paying member, with a yearly membership to play.
Why are you singling out one person, when as you say, the majority of people don't pay?
Have you actually spoken with him face-to-face rather than passive-aggressively leaving notes on his car?
Sounds like you need to enforce this across the board, for everyone who doesn't pay.
Perhaps this guy knows that you don't seem to actually do anything about it, since as you said yourself, the majority of locals don't even bother to pay.
Ban everyone who doesn't pay, for a month, for the first infraction.
Perma-Ban for second infraction.
Or just shut the course down for awhile and only allow season pass holders.
At our local private course, you have to be a paying member, with a yearly membership to play.
gdub58
Birdie Member
I don't think it is reasonable to single out one person who is not paying just because he is doing it more often than other people.
If you have the ability to close the course by installing a locked gate at the entrance and include a "course closed today - no trespassing", then do it except on days where you can be there (or have a trusted local be there) to collect the fee from people who show up to play. Post a notice of this arrangement on local disc golf sites/social media, and post in advance the next day(s) the course will be open.
Clearly the honor system is not working, so you can either live with that and think of the fee box as a place to collect optional donations or you can have a course that is truly pay-to-play, which requires full-time monitoring when the course is open. There is no in-between at this point.
Selling season passes certainly complicates things for now, so you can't really implement this until next year. I would start with posting a notice that the course will have to close for a large part of next year since people are abusing the current system, which may increase compliance some but will unfortunately likely do nothing to deter your most frequent offender.
If you have the ability to close the course by installing a locked gate at the entrance and include a "course closed today - no trespassing", then do it except on days where you can be there (or have a trusted local be there) to collect the fee from people who show up to play. Post a notice of this arrangement on local disc golf sites/social media, and post in advance the next day(s) the course will be open.
Clearly the honor system is not working, so you can either live with that and think of the fee box as a place to collect optional donations or you can have a course that is truly pay-to-play, which requires full-time monitoring when the course is open. There is no in-between at this point.
Selling season passes certainly complicates things for now, so you can't really implement this until next year. I would start with posting a notice that the course will have to close for a large part of next year since people are abusing the current system, which may increase compliance some but will unfortunately likely do nothing to deter your most frequent offender.
Orioles_Lefty
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2017
- Messages
- 597
You have every right to take some of the more aggressive approaches people advocate here though I might start with an FYI informational letter or handout describing the ways in which payment is applied to course upkeep. It's going to be really hard to change the behavior of someone who is a total ahole short of banning them, so my thinking is that a "dear player" letter you could leave on all cars that outlines how user fees benefit the course provides direct persuasion for people to want to pay and also gives any individual the opportunity to demonstrate he/she is not an ahole. Some might call it a wasted step or time and maybe I'm a softy but directly appealing to a person's decency allows you to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the letter you can thank those whose have paid so everyone gets the point of who the letter is really directed at. In matters of "policy," successful results are more often achieved by playing to the user's benefits than by hiding behind policy, though sometimes policy and the enforcement of it as policy is sometimes your last option.
I'd suggest not doing anything that damages the perception of those "playing by the rules" because bad PR is always more damaging than seeing a person circumvent a policy. The added benefit of the letter I describe is it might motivate a larger total % to pay, which should be your ultimate goal.
I'd suggest not doing anything that damages the perception of those "playing by the rules" because bad PR is always more damaging than seeing a person circumvent a policy. The added benefit of the letter I describe is it might motivate a larger total % to pay, which should be your ultimate goal.
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,180
It's gonna sound stupid but....
Print out and laminate loads of pictures of peoples eyes, not the rest of the face just eyes is enough. Stick them around hole one, the honesty box, the waiver sheet etc.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1686213/
Tried it personally , in a couple of different settings including a DG course, it works. Won't make 100% pay but it will increase your numbers.
Aside from that, good natured conversations with the offenders explaining the upkeep costs of the course and your future plans (whilst trying not to sound whiny) have a positive effect.
See if instead of cash the guy has anything else he can offer to the course as payment, can he install pads, can he do labour for you, can he run tournaments and promote them on your behalf to bring in revenue? Can he promote the course in the local schools he works in etc.
Failing all that, get the gun.
Print out and laminate loads of pictures of peoples eyes, not the rest of the face just eyes is enough. Stick them around hole one, the honesty box, the waiver sheet etc.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1686213/
Tried it personally , in a couple of different settings including a DG course, it works. Won't make 100% pay but it will increase your numbers.
Aside from that, good natured conversations with the offenders explaining the upkeep costs of the course and your future plans (whilst trying not to sound whiny) have a positive effect.
See if instead of cash the guy has anything else he can offer to the course as payment, can he install pads, can he do labour for you, can he run tournaments and promote them on your behalf to bring in revenue? Can he promote the course in the local schools he works in etc.
Failing all that, get the gun.
As someone who runs a private course, I empathize with the frustration at non-payers. I have the luxury of being on site and having a pro shop that is open daily, but we do use the honor system when the pro shop is closed (before noon weekdays, before 10am on weekends). Having the expectation that someone is going to be there to take money heads off a lot of the cheats and cheapskates. Still, there are plenty of folks (honest and not) that I've caught up with simply by being open when they finish their rounds and having them pay before they leave. Most times it's a matter of them not having change (or needing to use a credit/debit card) or knowing I was going to be there when they finished, so they plan to pay after and that's fine.
But there are still those that are trying to get away without paying that are caught off guard when they find me waiting. The excuses are all dumb, too. Ranging from "I didn't think I had to pay if you weren't open" despite large signs on the pro shop door and at the honor box saying "PAY HERE" to "I didn't have exact change" despite it being two guys and one of them pays with a ten (honor box price is $5 per person).
As far as advice goes for this person, direct confrontation is absolutely the way to go. Start with something friendly and non-accusatory...I like to open with "did you need change for the honor box?" If they don't immediately say yes or otherwise attempt to pay up without question (any honest person would), then you break out the "the course isn't free" speeches and suggest non-payment will result in banning and so on. If the guy is a real ******* about it and still won't pay, boot him and be sure to get a photo of him (and/or his car). Then shame away on social media. If he comes back, call the cops.
Also if you don't already have one, put a large sign near the honor box with the price and language saying payment/waiver is mandatory and non-payment will be considered trespass and theft of service. Put another one at the first tee that asks "did you pay?" and again points out non-payment = trespass and theft of service. Basically, make it absolutely foolproof so there can never be a valid claim of "I didn't know I had to pay/sign".
As a last resort, if this is some place where you or someone you trust can't be there on a daily basis, it might be worth considering making it members only for a while. Make a card or a bag tag for members and if someone is on the course and can't show you the card/tag, boot them. If members know that only they can play, they may take some ownership of the place when they're there and keep an eye on things for you.
Last suggestion, and it's something I do (though it's not directly intended to be a theft deterrent) is charge more to folks who don't pay in the honor box. I charge one price when the pro shop is open ($7) and have a discounted rate at the honor box ($5) when the shop is closed. Since you don't have a shop or regular hours when you're there to collect money, you can make the non-honor box price $10 or $20 or something, but only payable if someone is caught not paying. Hell, make it $50 and call that person a member. Then they never have to worry about paying again (for that year, presumably).
But there are still those that are trying to get away without paying that are caught off guard when they find me waiting. The excuses are all dumb, too. Ranging from "I didn't think I had to pay if you weren't open" despite large signs on the pro shop door and at the honor box saying "PAY HERE" to "I didn't have exact change" despite it being two guys and one of them pays with a ten (honor box price is $5 per person).
As far as advice goes for this person, direct confrontation is absolutely the way to go. Start with something friendly and non-accusatory...I like to open with "did you need change for the honor box?" If they don't immediately say yes or otherwise attempt to pay up without question (any honest person would), then you break out the "the course isn't free" speeches and suggest non-payment will result in banning and so on. If the guy is a real ******* about it and still won't pay, boot him and be sure to get a photo of him (and/or his car). Then shame away on social media. If he comes back, call the cops.
Also if you don't already have one, put a large sign near the honor box with the price and language saying payment/waiver is mandatory and non-payment will be considered trespass and theft of service. Put another one at the first tee that asks "did you pay?" and again points out non-payment = trespass and theft of service. Basically, make it absolutely foolproof so there can never be a valid claim of "I didn't know I had to pay/sign".
As a last resort, if this is some place where you or someone you trust can't be there on a daily basis, it might be worth considering making it members only for a while. Make a card or a bag tag for members and if someone is on the course and can't show you the card/tag, boot them. If members know that only they can play, they may take some ownership of the place when they're there and keep an eye on things for you.
Last suggestion, and it's something I do (though it's not directly intended to be a theft deterrent) is charge more to folks who don't pay in the honor box. I charge one price when the pro shop is open ($7) and have a discounted rate at the honor box ($5) when the shop is closed. Since you don't have a shop or regular hours when you're there to collect money, you can make the non-honor box price $10 or $20 or something, but only payable if someone is caught not paying. Hell, make it $50 and call that person a member. Then they never have to worry about paying again (for that year, presumably).
Gblambert
Birdie Member
We had a similar problem with the honor pay system at our course, but to a lesser degree. Here's what we did, without too much effort or $, but it seemed to work:
1. Included a paragraph on the course welcome/introduction sign about it being a pay 2 play facility, the owner puts mega time and money into the course, needs the greens fees to eek out a meager living, etc, etc
2. Provide a roll of numbered raffle type tickets and ask players to put one with the waiver and keep the other. Mention that you will be spot checking on the course and may ask to see the ticket.
3. Every now and then, walk the course and greet every player you can find. Ask for the ticket and when they have it thank them for visiting and supporting you. Its an opportunity for you to meet your customers and get some good feedback. If a player has no ticket and admits to not paying, ask them to leave immediately.
4. Put a small sign by the hole 1 tee pad stating the greens fee requirement again and warning that players will be asked to leave the property immediately if caught without paying.
1. Included a paragraph on the course welcome/introduction sign about it being a pay 2 play facility, the owner puts mega time and money into the course, needs the greens fees to eek out a meager living, etc, etc
2. Provide a roll of numbered raffle type tickets and ask players to put one with the waiver and keep the other. Mention that you will be spot checking on the course and may ask to see the ticket.
3. Every now and then, walk the course and greet every player you can find. Ask for the ticket and when they have it thank them for visiting and supporting you. Its an opportunity for you to meet your customers and get some good feedback. If a player has no ticket and admits to not paying, ask them to leave immediately.
4. Put a small sign by the hole 1 tee pad stating the greens fee requirement again and warning that players will be asked to leave the property immediately if caught without paying.
Dbags will be dbags. This is why many private courses are difficult to play and often end up closing. There is no easy solution, but getting a locking gate and having someone onsight to collect might be the only foolproof solution.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
I would agree with the people that have said not to limit your focus to the biggest abuser. Start throwing out anyone who doesn't pay. It'll only take a couple people before word spreads. The current non-payers will either start paying or start playing elsewhere.
More passive aggressive solution: put out a sign informing people that if they're caught on the property without paying, they will be arrested for trespassing and charges will be filed. Just make sure that you see the threat through.
More passive aggressive solution: put out a sign informing people that if they're caught on the property without paying, they will be arrested for trespassing and charges will be filed. Just make sure that you see the threat through.
sprintermatt
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2008
- Messages
- 807
Buy a "Boot" and put it on cars of people who willfully ignore the honor system. $20 fee to remove boot. I bet they'll find you when they can't get home...
You could always add a sign that says in effect "The honor system is not working as I see the same people day in and day out who don't pay. If you honor your time here, honor MY time here. It's pretty simple. This is a pay to play facility. If you don't want to pay, go elsewhere. If you don't want to pay and still play here, I will consider you trespassing."
Make an example of one person, and word may spread.
You could always add a sign that says in effect "The honor system is not working as I see the same people day in and day out who don't pay. If you honor your time here, honor MY time here. It's pretty simple. This is a pay to play facility. If you don't want to pay, go elsewhere. If you don't want to pay and still play here, I will consider you trespassing."
Make an example of one person, and word may spread.
Especially that last part. Word will spread quickly if somebody gets busted.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Or have their car towed.
I like the idea but...eeek...is that legal?
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Something like this may help.
Or get one of these, and have Paying Customer Parking Only added to the blank space.
Or get one of these, and have Paying Customer Parking Only added to the blank space.
sprintermatt
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2008
- Messages
- 807
You could develop a bag tag. Charge $20 or $25 for a bag tag. Have 6 month expiration (noted on a ledger when it'll expire).
Have a bag tag challenge every weekend. Put a leaderboard up to show which tags are in the top ten. Make it about MORE than just the money, and people might feel obliged to get in. If you don't want to pay for bag tags, you can make them out of a downed tree trunk.
If you are a local, and are playing without a bag tag, you must purchase one. Thems the rules.
Have a bag tag challenge every weekend. Put a leaderboard up to show which tags are in the top ten. Make it about MORE than just the money, and people might feel obliged to get in. If you don't want to pay for bag tags, you can make them out of a downed tree trunk.
If you are a local, and are playing without a bag tag, you must purchase one. Thems the rules.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,312
I agree that you have incredible patience. I would have already placed a hidden trail camera and testified at his criminal tresspass/theft trial.
One thing that I suggest is a system like the US Forest service uses where you put your information on an envelope that has a detachable tag. In the envelope goes the cash which gets deposited into a lock box with a slot. The tag goes on the windshield. Anyone who doesn't have a tag didn't pay. Anyone who has a tag that doesn't match an envelope hasn't paid. If you work with the local sheriff, you may be able to get a deputy to occasionally meet you at the course, especially on heavily trafficked days, and issue citations to those who didn't pay. If you do that once or twice, the thieves will disappear, word will get out and you'll likely get a much higher percentage of payers for a while. You won't have to do this very often.
You'll have to do this periodically. Even jailing the violators of Selah's no-disc-diving policy doesn't stop people from disc diving. I saw some divers there two weeks ago.
All the other, more positive ideas are good ones btw. Save this one until you get completely fed up with the thievery/trespassing.
One thing that I suggest is a system like the US Forest service uses where you put your information on an envelope that has a detachable tag. In the envelope goes the cash which gets deposited into a lock box with a slot. The tag goes on the windshield. Anyone who doesn't have a tag didn't pay. Anyone who has a tag that doesn't match an envelope hasn't paid. If you work with the local sheriff, you may be able to get a deputy to occasionally meet you at the course, especially on heavily trafficked days, and issue citations to those who didn't pay. If you do that once or twice, the thieves will disappear, word will get out and you'll likely get a much higher percentage of payers for a while. You won't have to do this very often.
You'll have to do this periodically. Even jailing the violators of Selah's no-disc-diving policy doesn't stop people from disc diving. I saw some divers there two weeks ago.
All the other, more positive ideas are good ones btw. Save this one until you get completely fed up with the thievery/trespassing.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,312
It probably depends on the jurisdiction. With a couple of phone calls you could probably make it legal almost anywhere. You might be able to do it with a sign at the entrance warning that people who fail to pay will be towed/booted depending on local law. The towing option is probably already legal as long as you warn (but check with the towing companies, they will know the law on this).
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