I am going off on my own, a totally new approach

[Bradley Walker]

Can we get a video of someone showing this? Im a bit confused. Im understanding this as not moving my right shoulder, but bring my left shoulder around it? Im probably just confused.

I think if one starts injecting "other" ideas into this is just going to be confused.

I never said to not move your right shoulder. Maybe you mean I said to not really do anything with your throwing arm?

Hold your throwing arm straight out in front of you with a slight bend in your elbow like you are holding a disc. Reach your left hand across and put it in your right armpit or on top of your shoulder.

Now go through your x step and ignore your right side or throwing arm and simply put your left side behind your right, and then snap your left side around your right. Watch how your throwing arm will snap around you.

See previous posts for clarification.

 

[axion]

> and then snap your left side around your right. Watch how your throwing arm will snap around you.

Im obviously misunderstanding what you want here. Just feels like Im spinning in place or something. If when you have time, you could slap up a video I would be greatly appreciative.

 

[Bradley Walker]

> and then snap your left side around your right. Watch how your throwing arm will snap around you.

Im obviously misunderstanding what you want here. Just feels like Im spinning in place or something. If when you have time, you could slap up a video I would be greatly appreciative.

Maybe you are... for the first time truly rotating freely without being stuck. How fast is your arm going?

 

[VictorB]

I think I've halfway figured this out this season. Driving through my left side makes me feel like my front arm 'launches' in an arc. It definitely pulls my body more around than a more traditional feeling front foot plant

 

[Bradley Walker]

Just removing the left arm from the equation completely (and tucking it into the right armpit) is really illuminating in itself.

 

[Lazerface]

I'm excited to try/focus on this.

 

[broomerang]

Tried this last night with a 10lb plate and then swung a golf club to remind myself how to feel the hit properly. This is the feeling I've been trying to achieve when throwing backhand but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong vs my golf swing. I'm a former collegiate golfer that stopped playing thanks to a shoulder/upper back injury.

Will give me something to practice in the off-season besides putting for sure.

 

[Discusted]

I never advocated any "wide rail".

For the record I think all these approaches to describing a pull line are BS. These all try to describe an arc in linear terms. It is an arc, with two other arcs attached to it... It appears linear simply due to momentum. When you pull on something it snaps straight. The linear appearance is simply an EFFECT, not a cause.

You can still work on the elbow, but if you are not achieving the same trailing side to front side relationship as Kevin Jones shown here, it really does very little as a form improver.

For the purpose of this completely new approach, if you keep your elbow joint soft, it will find the angles.

This makes sense to me. I've tried wide rails and straight rails, and my accuracy and power seems to be better with straight. When you say it's 2 arcs, I never really though about it that way, but I guess that's what it is isn't it. The first arc is create by the rotation of the torso which rotates the shoulder, since th arm is being dragged it looks like a straight line. The second arc is the elbow extension. Is this right?

 

[slowplastic]

This makes sense to me. I've tried wide rails and straight rails, and my accuracy and power seems to be better with straight. When you say it's 2 arcs, I never really though about it that way, but I guess that's what it is isn't it. The first arc is create by the rotation of the torso which rotates the shoulder, since th arm is being dragged it looks like a straight line. The second arc is the elbow extension. Is this right?

To others, just skip this post if you don't want confusion.

It's so complicated...but if your balance is right it lines up...and knowing the goals helps you be aware of what to try to do or feel. Since IMO you have to feel these things, it's too much to "try".

Your spine is rotating but it is not vertical exactly, so it's like a precession in how the shoulders move from the hips/torso rotating or swiveling. Then you try to keep the arm straight but your elbow gets loaded back, and the wrist and disc will also have a slight load. And this all has to be counterbalanced. How everything ends up lining up is really really hard for me to think about since it's not simply flat or straight even if the end hit point is "straight" at that instant, as the shoulders kind of swing in an arc too under your chin it seems.

So it's best to be aware that you want the arcs to line up, far away from you, with a pretty long arm feel, and when you're facing 10:30ish at this time.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

So it's best to be aware that you want the arcs to line up, far away from you, with a pretty long arm feel, and when you're facing 10:30ish at this time.

That's a great way to describe it, and as I was working with a friend yesterday on moving his arc out front, it was so plainly clear to me that our offset-shift only works if you get the arc out front.

When he was falling into old habits of throwing from the left shoulder, the power that was added by the off-set shift was ripping the disc from his hand well before the hit (sawed off shots).

I've tried to reinforce the idea for a very long time, that we're building a frame that gets powered up based on the magic that we can harness with the levers of our arm. The only muscle that I use is to hold the frame in place.

As I watched Bradley's throws from a few weeks back, I could see he was still using arm muscle to "crack the whip", which IMO is still too much muscle. Even if you're putting the arc in the right place, if you're actively arming the disc - I think you're missing out on letting the physics do the work for you. I'm not bagging on anybody at all, and maybe I was seeing something that wasn't there - but it boils down to the difference between throwing something forward and resisting your momentum and transfer it into the disc, so that you can do this:

And I believe that reading the OP, you're on the right path. It's so key to realize that:

1. Your weight shift is not targetward, but about 20-ish degrees more closed from your target and the implications of this with regards to throwing hyzer and anhyzer are pretty exaggerated (as my annie lines are now x-steps coming in from the right side of the teebox).

2. Muscle is really only used to hold the frame and posture in place.

3. Posture is so key to maintaining the angles to resist the redirection, if you're collapsing forward, you can't resist. If you're too far back, then you probably never posted up on the frontside. That's why I like the battering ram analogy or the idea of underhanding a medicine ball forward, it's worth actually doing.

Appreciate the thread and it's great to have some movement in the forum!

 

[Bradley Walker]

The first arc is create by the rotation of the torso which rotates the shoulder, since th arm is being dragged it looks like a straight line. The second arc is the elbow extension. Is this right?

I think it is real simple.

There are three arcs.

1. The central arc, which is simply the extension of your extended arm from your rotational center. the one we are addressing here.

2. The elbow folding and unfolding. I am starting to think that elbow folding is pretty much going to happen unless you are fighting it.

3. The arc of the disc around your wrist facilitated by your wrist bending back in the same manner as your elbow. This is more reaction than action. but I think many of the best throwers actively cockl their wrists back despite the claims to the contrary. I could post many examples.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think it is real simple.
3. The arc of the disc around your wrist facilitated by your wrist bending back in the same manner as your elbow. This is more reaction than action. but I think many of the best throwers actively cockl their wrists back despite the claims to the contrary. I could post many examples.

I call that "pre-cocking" and you're right, it's very common. I believe that pre-cocking the wrist is a simple physical reminder that waiting to initiate the arc needs to happen at the right spot. If you pre-cock the wrist, trying to throw from your left shoulder feels terrible, but once you hit center chest your wrist will go back to neutral and you can start the extension.

I like to pre-cock the wrist if I'm not liking my extension, as a reminder - and it does very quickly get me throwing more efficiently. It's always surprising how far forward that arc extension works best, probably more so coming from a background of two handed swings.

 

[Bradley Walker]

As I watched Bradley's throws from a few weeks back, I could see he was still using arm muscle to "crack the whip", which IMO is still too much muscle.

I could not agree more (so much so I tore my biceps muscle again WHICH IS NO BUENO-IT IS ALREADY HELD TOGETHER WITH SCREWS). Any videos I added were to be considered "before" videos. And were all made BEFORE I added any new concepts to the mix.

There have been (are) so many bad teachings, I have lots of them in my form (from way before DGR ever existed). That is why I am saying that for the future of my OWN throwing health, it is time to strip it all down into something easy and manageable, which the current teaching IMHO is not... again IMHO.

I am not going to borrow from anything that came before, and I am going to create my own language. I am going to use Kevin Jones as a model, because I think he has the most ATHLETIC looking throw I have ever seen and pretty much shoots down all conventions, which is a good thing.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Again, just taking your left arm and sticking it into your right arm pit and saying that is where it will stay for the time being is step in the right direction... The essentially closes the left shoulder for the entire throw and gets rid of the counterweight of the left arm that serves to open the shoulders.

The biggest power leak I see is the shoulders opening like doing a swan dive. When the left shoulder opens the right shoulder opens, then you are essentially flapping at the disc.

 

[ponder]

I constantly see people mentioning the opening of the shoulders and keeping the shoulders closed. What exactly does this mean? Are we talking about the shoulders in relation to the target? How does this relate to the actual position of the scapula through the throw?

 

[Bradley Walker]

I constantly see people mentioning the opening of the shoulders and keeping the shoulders closed. What exactly does this mean? Are we talking about the shoulders in relation to the target? How does this relate to the actual position of the scapula through the throw?

I am talking about the actual shoulder opening relative to your body.

If you open your arms like a swan dive that is what I call opening the shoulder. Or flapping.

Most beginners simply flap their arm in front of their chest from left to right.

If you take your left arm and put your left hand in your right armpit, your left shoulder is closed.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Ricky Wysocki is another guy that generating all of his power from his left side. His arm is doing literally nothing on his backhand.

 

[ThrowBot]

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the past 30 posts:

I have a hard time reconciling the "passive" throwing arm with the classic "lead with the elbow" mantra. Is that compatible, and I'm just thinking about it wrong?

I guess I could see it if the upper half (and thus the elbow) of the throwing arm is getting pushed out front by the driving rear shoulder. Then the lower half of the arm is the passive whip. That's essentially the American style, as I understand it.

But if the ENTIRE throwing arm is passive/whip, then I guess it sounds more like Swedish to me. In that case, it seems like this concept would be the rear HIP driving the motion with the front shoulder as the fulcrum. Practicing that motion in my office, it seems like the most direct kinetic link is rear hip to leading shoulder. Those two feel locked in place together as the entire throwing arm whips around. But the rear shoulder feels pretty passive to me, which is completely counter to the point of this thread.

So I guess I must be missing something.

 

[JuanA]

...and then snap your left side around your right. Watch how your throwing arm will snap around you.

I was trying this at work earlier. I felt an increased amount of blood rushing into my hand compared to my normal throw.

I need to try this in my practice field, but I'm very interested in this idea.

 

[Bradley Walker]

What is Kevin Jones? I don't think he is Swedish, I think he is from Arkansas.