I don't understand Disc Golf Par

[Piqsid]

I've only been playing for about three weeks, but I am already very frustrated with Par. I don't understand it. I come from a ball golf background, and Par was supposed to be something hard to get. Holes are designed to make pars only obtainable if you played the hole correctly, and birdies are only possible if you make a great shot.

Right now I am terrible at disc golf. Most 350' holes with a lot of trees I play are listed as a par 4. My drive will go way off course, hitting a tree and slamming to the ground only 150' from the tee box. With the hole now 200' away, I think I should reach it, but my next shot will again hit a tree and bounce away from where I was throwing and I'll be lucky to be within 100' of the hole. My third shot should have a legit shot at the pin, but I am usually 15 to 20' long or short or off to one side. As bad as I am, a 15-20' put is almost a gimme and I collect a par on the hole without making one good shot. In fact, I put together 3 horrible shots and one put that 90% of players would make.

You can argue and tell me that I should then play the pro pars. I know I am not a pro, but even if I played every hole as a par 3, I would still probably finish 9 holes on most of the courses I play at only +3 or +4, since they already have a lot of par 3's. I did play a tough course in Joliet and got +14 on 18 holes, but I got that with 4 double bogeys and 2 triples on holes where if you make a mistake off the tee, you are in for a wild ride. The other 12 holes I got par.

When I look at videos of tournaments I see scores of -50+ for the leader.

So why can't designers make holes where par is difficult to get? I understand that most courses are installed into city parks by people who don't know what they are doing, but there are a lot of cheap ball golf courses out there too, and they still know how to make you earn par. The only consistent way I've seen to make par hard to get is by putting a hole in dense trees, but by reading most of the discussions on this board, throwing successfully through trees is as much about luck as it is skill.

Is this something that is just inherent in the sport? Is there a desire to make new players feel good about themselves by getting par so they keep playing?

 

[zenbot]

I wouldn't get hung up on par. In the end the person with the fewest shots wins.

 

[bazillion]

Don't sweat it. Disc golf and ball golf are two different sports and if you try to compare one to the other you'll wind up in a straitjacket, drooling all over yourself.

Best advice - not necessarily from me, but from those who are actually good at this - is (1) work on form, (2) work on distance, but above all, (0) have fun.

And don't sweat par, man - it'll take the wind out of your sails pronto.

 

[Dave242]

You make too much sense......I am thinking Olorin has created a new handle.

You can read Olorin's work ("Close Range Par") here as it makes the most intuitive sense (to understand and implement) of any standard proposed.

 

[JSurmann]

Just play everything like I do, as a par 3. You'll only strive to get better.

 

[Jody Mitchell]

I wouldn't get hung up on par. In the end the person with the fewest shots wins.

Exactly, I have never ever looked at a hole sign for it's par, I could care less what it is, at the end of the round, the person with the least amount of strokes wins.

Sure, it looks cool to be sitting at -20 due to getting 2s and 3s on 400 ft. par 5s but it only matters when you tally up the final score.

When people ask me what I shot, I never use terms like 5 under or 1 over, etc. I give the actual number. I shot a 47 or whatever.

 

[DavidSauls]

Since you're new here, I'll point out that you can search for threads about par and having enough reading material to get you through the winter.

It may help you to understand by contrasting "putting" and "the green" in disc golf and ball golf. Disc golf pars are often set to give you two chances to putt from the green, which is often construed as the 10-meter circle. If you can reach the 10-meter circle for the tee, it's a par-3; if it takes two throws to reach it, it's a par-4. BUT, putting is much, much easier in disc golf than par golf. If you average two throws everytime you get within 10 meters, you're probably kicking yourself.

Olorin's essays offer a better way. As do some competing ideas published by others. But there's no universally accepted and applied system, so what you see on signs and scorecards can vary greatly from course to course.

Relaxing and not being too concerned about "par" helps, too.

 

[jdggna]

I wouldn't get hung up on par. In the end the person with the fewest shots wins.

I don't know why more people don't get this. "What is par" threads are pointless in my opinion (not ragging on the OP by any means...I'm thinking about the ones where its a big ass debate). I'm in the same boat as you Zen. I don't think twice about posted par. I play all par threes. The only reason I do that is because its easier to remember and tally my total if I'm adding/subtracting a low number from 54 rather than keeping a running total the whole way.

 

[nitegolfer]

Many many courses were installed when discs were much slower meaning there are going to be shorter holes that are reachable by more beginners with faster discs. Also, a par 4 on a 350' hole is probably the beginner par not the normal par score for the hole. 350' hole should probably play as a par 3. That's not the pro par, that is a par 3 hole for all players, AM or PRO in a tournament.

As for most of your other questions. NO.

 

[Beable]

Play a real course. Come to Pittsburgh and you will get all the nonpars you want. I have yet to shoot par from the middle tees at Deer Lakes or Moraine.

 

[zenbot]

"Par is whatever I say it is. On my home course there is a par 16 and the other day I almost birdied it."
-Willie Nelson

 

[John Rock]

"Par is whatever I say it is. On my home course there is a par 16 and the other day I almost birdied it."
-Willie Nelson

I heard he's getting more sponsorship offers since he cut his hair. And his tour bus will fit perfectly with the regular crowd at the course parking lot (including that smoky smell coming from the windows).

 

[Noill]

In order to beat these points to death....

Play par 3.. doesn't matter that it's called "Pro Par" as ams play this way too... it's just easier
Yes, many courses were designed with the slower discs of the past in mind so par 3 was harder to get
Keep in mind that many people are either Par Players (mostly get even on the course), Birdie players (mostly birdie the holes) or Bogie Players (mostly end up the game with plus some number)...
Lastly, forget par and play against yourself... if it took you par to hole out last time then aim to better that and birdie... if you get a bogie on a hole than try to par it... scoring is just an easy way to keep track of it all.. very lastly, the guy (or lady) with the fewest strokes wins... what could be easier to know than that?

 

[Lewis]

I see two main differences in the concept of "par" between ball golf and disc golf.

The first is that disc golf is a much easier sport to play at a level of decent competence. From putting to driving, it's easier to learn how to throw a disc with accuracy and distance than it is to learn how to hit a golf ball with accuracy and distance. When I set up to hit a golf ball, I have to worry as much as or more about striking the ball cleanly than I do about club selection, lining up right and modulating my swing speed. Even if I have the right club and am lined up right, there are a whole potpourri of catastrophic problems that can add instant strokes to my score, such as topping the ball, striking the grass behind the ball, shanking it, letting my swing plane fall out of line, etc. In disc golf, once I have a disc and am lined up, all I have to worry about is my degree of hyzer and hitting my clean release point. It's like the difference between attempting a combination shot on a pool table or hitting the queue ball straight into the pocket. Furthermore, recovering from trouble is a lot easier in disc golf because you never have to worry about your "lie." In a nutshell, disc golf is just plain easier, so the concept of par becomes "you played the hole with average competence" rather than "you played this hole like an expert."

The second major difference, at least in my opinion, is what DavidSauls said about putting. In ball golf, par normally allows two putts once you're within putting range, whereas in disc golf par normally only allows only one putt once you're within putting range. This doesn't quite match reality, since a good disc golfer can throw his drive on the majority of holes (under 350') to within putting range, but for the purposes of par disc golf doesn't assume you're going to "park" a hole until you're within about 150' of the basket (I can't remember offhand what the CR Par rule of thumb is).

You also may want to start using your own guidelines, or the standards generally accepted by your local club, to assess par, since many, many disc golf courses set their posted par decades ago, when discs like Rocs and Cyclones were the fastest thing yet invented. Few people other than beginners will play par 4 to a hole under 400', unless there's a serious dog-leg that forces a second shot from the fairway. The PDGA has published some par standards on their website, but not everybody agrees with their standards, and until they have more power over the course designers, they're not likely to always get their way.

 

[Dave242]

I don't know why more people don't get this. "What is par" threads are pointless in my opinion (not ragging on the OP by any means...I'm thinking about the ones where its a big ass debate).

I just posted this on the "unfairway" thread and it applies here too (as I am one of the guys who is often involved in the big ass debates):

This stuff is fun for me (and probably miserable for many) since it helps me think out loud through my thoughts on course design issues - my favorite part of DG (at least when not on the course). If you don't discuss/argue, discussions die and then I miss out on hearing good/valid thoughts. And they are usually good and valid even if I end up dismissing them from what ends up being my "world view".

Regarding Par, I have learned a ton about people's approach to the game/sport of DG as a result of these discussions. Par is closely related to scoring and scoring is tied to the hip to course design as it is to competitive play. Designs can be both fun/enjoyable AND appropriate for scoring spread and challenge.

The thing I do not get is how people who do not think it matters go on and on saying it does not matter. If it does not matter, why spend the energy discussing?

 

[jeverett]

As no one else seems to have mentioned it so far, course 'par' depends not just on the length and difficulty of the holes, but on the decided-upon 'color' of the particular course tees, which is a representation of who the course is designed for. There are four official tee 'colors':

Red (easiest tees, recommended for players of roughly 850 rating (or roughly 15 strokes behind the average professional player))
White (recommended for players of roughly 900 rating)
Blue (recommended for players of roughly 950 rating)
Gold (recommended for players of roughly 1000 rating)

Along with the above, each tee 'color' also has a number of guidelines as to what par should be for any given hole at that 'color' skill level. For example, by Red tee standards, a flat hole with light foliage of over 325ft. is probably deserving of a par 4. It sounds like the course you are playing uses the Red tee standards. By comparison, many even recreational courses use the Blue level to evaluate course Par. At the Blue level, a flat hole with light foliage is probably still deserving of a par 3 unless it's longer than 450ft.

If you'd like to look at the guidelines, a nice little summary chart can be found here:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

These are of course just rough guidelines. Sometimes due to elevation change, forced lines/no lines, impenetrable foliage, etc. the distance/foliage guidelines don't always work, but I've found them a good benchmark for taking a hard look at the posted course par.

My recommendation? Play the course as a Blue-level course.

 

[JRW III]

If you'd like to look at the guidelines, a nice little summary chart can be found here:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

Very neat chart, thanks for posting.

"Par" at my home course (Oak Meadow) has always bugged me. It was designed with the "all holes are par 3" method. However, from the white tees, a par round is rated at 1,000. +11 (65) from the white tees is a 900 rated round.

Using the chart above, there are 6 holes that are over 400 ft (6,7,10,11,12,17) and thus should be par 4. In addition, there are 2 holes (3&4) that are heavily wooded and over 325ft. Using that model, the white tees would have par set at 62, which is much closer to the 65 round that is rated at 900. One could probably find another 3 holes that are borderline to bring par up to the 65 that is rated at 900.

 

[WillACarpenter]

Many many courses were installed when discs were much slower meaning there are going to be shorter holes that are reachable by more beginners with faster discs.

If you want to understand why that's par 4 do one of two things.

The easiest: Go buy an ultimate frisbee of some sort, Discraft makes Ultra Stars, they're nice.

Try throwing that lid 350' and then PUTTING WITH IT. Good luck on that 4.

or...

get an 11 year old girl. Give her a Roc. Have her play the hole...bet she doesn't get a four....but she gets a 6 after almost hitting the 5 from a ways a way...and she feels like she could get a 4 next time. That means your tees were designed to get rec players hooked.


\/\/

 

[NothinButChing]

so the 400 foot par 4's at Golden Gate park are not legit par 4's?? I'm confused...

 

[SmoothSailor]

this thread = waste of reading.