I don't understand Disc Golf Par

[surgeflx87]

I've only been playing for about three weeks, but I am already very frustrated with Par. I don't understand it. I come from a ball golf background, and Par was supposed to be something hard to get. Holes are designed to make pars only obtainable if you played the hole correctly, and birdies are only possible if you make a great shot.

Right now I am terrible at disc golf. Most 350' holes with a lot of trees I play are listed as a par 4. My drive will go way off course, hitting a tree and slamming to the ground only 150' from the tee box. With the hole now 200' away, I think I should reach it, but my next shot will again hit a tree and bounce away from where I was throwing and I'll be lucky to be within 100' of the hole. My third shot should have a legit shot at the pin, but I am usually 15 to 20' long or short or off to one side. As bad as I am, a 15-20' put is almost a gimme and I collect a par on the hole without making one good shot. In fact, I put together 3 horrible shots and one put that 90% of players would make.

You can argue and tell me that I should then play the pro pars. I know I am not a pro, but even if I played every hole as a par 3, I would still probably finish 9 holes on most of the courses I play at only +3 or +4, since they already have a lot of par 3's. I did play a tough course in Joliet and got +14 on 18 holes, but I got that with 4 double bogeys and 2 triples on holes where if you make a mistake off the tee, you are in for a wild ride. The other 12 holes I got par.

When I look at videos of tournaments I see scores of -50+ for the leader.

So why can't designers make holes where par is difficult to get? I understand that most courses are installed into city parks by people who don't know what they are doing, but there are a lot of cheap ball golf courses out there too, and they still know how to make you earn par. The only consistent way I've seen to make par hard to get is by putting a hole in dense trees, but by reading most of the discussions on this board, throwing successfully through trees is as much about luck as it is skill.

Is this something that is just inherent in the sport? Is there a desire to make new players feel good about themselves by getting par so they keep playing?

I agree, you should play everything par 3s if you want to around here, alot of the courses are pretty much par 54 imo around here anyways. Trust me there are many courses where par is difficult to get, just you have to travel a little to find them. Let me guess, the hard course in Joliet you're talking about is Highland Park correct? Im from around the area. Send me a pm if you ever wanna play some rounds.

 

[mzuleger]

Play a real course. Come to Pittsburgh and you will get all the nonpars you want.

I hate responses like this. You can only play the courses you have available to you and it's unreasonable to expect someone to drive for hours just to play at whatever city/course.

 

[Jody Mitchell]

it's unreasonable to expect someone to drive for hours just to play at whatever city/course.

Not really.

 

[SeanMeacham]

If you just started and you are making crappy shots and still getting par, the course you are playing is set up very easy. This is not a knock on you, but unless you are natural, DG courses should offer you more of a challenge. WIth that said, master that course and take what you have learned and apply it to a tougher lay out. You will be ahead of the curve.

 

[Beable]

I hate responses like this. You can only play the courses you have available to you and it's unreasonable to expect someone to drive for hours just to play at whatever city/course.

I bet he can find some closer than Pittsburgh. My point was that in his limited disc golf experience, he's played some easy courses and yet he's generalizing about the ease of the game as a whole.

 

[Piqsid]

Thanks for the discussion, even if it's one you've all had before.

I guess my hang up is that par in ball golf helps me play better. I'm sure half of you will think this is stupid, but don't always try for the lowest score in golf, but try to play the course the way it is supposed to be played, and by that, I improve my game. If I am sitting 200 yards away on a par five, instead of thinking eagle, I am going to lay up, get on in three and 2 put. I know that if I try to hit the tiny green from 200 with 4I I am going to swing too hard and shank the shot into the woods, or end up in a sand trap or maybe even top the ball and probably get a 6 or 7. Yes, maybe I can hit the green and get an eagle or birdie, but trying to do that, won't make me a better player if the only reason I get there is by luck. Likewise on a Par 3, I don't shoot for the pin, but for the largest section of the green where I know I can 2-putt.

In disc golf, I've run across the idea of "Ace Runs" and understand that to mean that if the hole is in range, then shoot for the pin every time and forget about laying up. There is a reviewer on this site that I am too lazy to go look up, who must live in the Chicago area because he reviews a lot of the courses in my area and he has a rating for Risk/Reward for most courses. In ball golf, this ratio is very high, meaning if you attempt a difficult shot, you will only shave one stroke off the hole if you make it, but you will lose 2 or 3 if you miss it, and most of the time for me, it isn't worth it.

Other than the Highland course (yes, you were right Surge), where they put steep ravines right behind a couple holes so you if you go at the pin and miss, you need a zip line to go get your disc, there has been very little penalty on most of the course I've played to just going at the pin with each throw, which does make par irrelevant. So I guess I'm not as upset at the par system as I am in the unimaginative designers in my area.

I'll be playing the Lemon Lake courses next weekend and I am hoping for better.

 

[magictenor1]

the best disc golf courses and holes have elements of the risk/reward you are talking about. there are some DG'ers who shoot for the pin no matter what but many do use strategy and I know I play to score the best I can but sometimes that means I don't go for the pin agressively

 

[jimimc]

Par only works if the designer built the course to play at diffrent pars. Pro par 3 was made up to keep score. That's it. Most Disc Golf courses were designed to play around a SSA of 50. A 1000 rated player goes in shoots between 8 down and even end of story. That is untill a few designers got bored with this and started designing holes that required 2 shots, even 3 shots, for those same 1000 rated players to get to the basket. None of this really does matter untill you've played a course that has true pars designed into it. Unlike traditional Disc Golf holes the difficulty of the hole isn't measured in strokes played but by the amount of shots the designer designed the hole to play.
If the hole was designed to play for one great shot to get to the basket that hole, according to Par, is a more difficult hole then a hole designed for two placement shots to get to the basket. I met a player at Iron Hill getting ready for a tournament there and he told me he heard how tough it was and he still played everything a 3. He's been playing over 15 years. I just smiled said OK and went back to work. I saw him at the end of the round and he said he actually had to give up on his attitude of par 3 by hole 5.

 

[kachtz]

Hey i played Ball golf for 10 years now also, and just recently started playing Disc golf as well....ball golf is by far much harder to score well according to the scorecard, disc golf, there is a ton of room for errors and screw ups, where you are like me your used to hitting 1 bad shot and then you gotta scramble for par.

the course i play on has 4 holes that are par 3 and over 450' and flat...then i went to a course in richmond va and there are holes that say 340 ft par 5...so dont pay much attention to score cards play everything a par 3 unless its over 500' then make it a par 4 =-D

 

[Nathanbr2]

I wouldn't get hung up on par. In the end the person with the fewest shots wins.

He pretty much said it.

With some of my newer friends (who have arms that aren't as strong) we play like this

0-399' = par 3
400'+ = Par 4

which puts a better challenge on people who throw 200+' (unless of course you can already throw 350' off the tee) but still makes it fair to the newer players.

one of our local courses has a 655' par 3 :wall: so on my 275 ft drive....well...it's ugly

 

[NothinButChing]

how is that justified? is it a course used for tournaments and championships? that doesnt even match the guide

 

[DavidSauls]

Piqsid,

As you play more and travel more, you'll find courses where the par is set in a way more familiar to you from ball golf. Courses where the top pros may shoot several strokes under par, and for most people, par is a great score, or even a pipe dream. Where a 4 or 5 on a hole is what you're aiming for.

As you visit this site more, you'll see that there are several schools of thought as to how par should be set, and how much it matters, and folks who are passionate about whichever camp they're in.

 

[surgeflx87]

Other than the Highland course (yes, you were right Surge), where they put steep ravines right behind a couple holes so you if you go at the pin and miss, you need a zip line to go get your disc, there has been very little penalty on most of the course I've played to just going at the pin with each throw, which does make par irrelevant. So I guess I'm not as upset at the par system as I am in the unimaginative designers in my area.

I'll be playing the Lemon Lake courses next weekend and I am hoping for better.

Good choice with the lemon lake courses, they are beautiful and very well designed imo, and probably some of the best courses out by our area, unless you want to travel up to highbridge or flip which ain't to bad of drives. If you're looking for more of a challenge you will definatly be faced with one at lemon lake. I cant wait to see how the pros play form the gold tees at worlds.

 

[DavidSauls]

So why can't designers make holes where par is difficult to get? I understand that most courses are installed into city parks by people who don't know what they are doing, but there are a lot of cheap ball golf courses out there too, and they still know how to make you earn par. The only consistent way I've seen to make par hard to get is by putting a hole in dense trees, but by reading most of the discussions on this board, throwing successfully through trees is as much about luck as it is skill.

Is this something that is just inherent in the sport? Is there a desire to make new players feel good about themselves by getting par so they keep playing?

They can and do. Not just with dense trees, but well-defined fairways with doglegs, with distance, with out-of-bounds, and with difficult greens.

Disc golf courses vary much more than ball golf courses. You'll find them designed by many different people, some more qualified than others, on many different parcels of land, with a wide range of intended users.

As an example, the two courses I play most, one has a posted par of 68 and I average 53 and pros often shoot 44 or better in tournaments; the other has a posted par of 62 but I average about 75, and the best scores by the local pros are in the upper 50s.

******

Of course, if the concept of "Par 2" were to take hold, a lot of holes and courses would be much harder to par.

 

[Olorin]

Piqsid,

You've asked some very perceptive questions. Good on you! My basic advice is to disregard almost all par on signs. There are thousands of different ways that sign par was determined so it's basically worthless. "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes" and it's a total chaotic mess.

Behold the answer to your question is… Close Range Par. Apply it consistently and you'll get rid of many problems. DG will always be easier to achieve par than traditional golf (TG) though, and that's part of the attraction. Also lots of courses are designed for recreational players so when top pros play them it's like Phil Mickelson playing an easy local municipal course. Just remember that par does matter, even if the vast majority of holes are CR par 3.

For those naysayers that inevitably crop up in these discussions there's good ole "why disc golf needs consistent par standards"

If you have time and interest you can also read more of my thoughts on par.

And if you really have lots of time you can check out the other DGCR Par threads. I still think that "What is Par?" has lots of good info too.

 

[mzuleger]

Not really.

You don't think expecting someone to drive 7.5 hours to play DG isn't unreasonable? You're out of your f-ing mind.

 

[CwAlbino]

I see two main differences in the concept of "par" between ball golf and disc golf.

The first is that disc golf is a much easier sport to play at a level of decent competence. From putting to driving, it's easier to learn how to throw a disc with accuracy and distance than it is to learn how to hit a golf ball with accuracy and distance. When I set up to hit a golf ball, I have to worry as much as or more about striking the ball cleanly than I do about club selection, lining up right and modulating my swing speed. Even if I have the right club and am lined up right, there are a whole potpourri of catastrophic problems that can add instant strokes to my score, such as topping the ball, striking the grass behind the ball, shanking it, letting my swing plane fall out of line, etc. In disc golf, once I have a disc and am lined up, all I have to worry about is my degree of hyzer and hitting my clean release point. It's like the difference between attempting a combination shot on a pool table or hitting the queue ball straight into the pocket. Furthermore, recovering from trouble is a lot easier in disc golf because you never have to worry about your "lie." In a nutshell, disc golf is just plain easier, so the concept of par becomes "you played the hole with average competence" rather than "you played this hole like an expert."

The second major difference, at least in my opinion, is what DavidSauls said about putting. In ball golf, par normally allows two putts once you're within putting range, whereas in disc golf par normally only allows only one putt once you're within putting range. This doesn't quite match reality, since a good disc golfer can throw his drive on the majority of holes (under 350') to within putting range, but for the purposes of par disc golf doesn't assume you're going to "park" a hole until you're within about 150' of the basket (I can't remember offhand what the CR Par rule of thumb is).

You also may want to start using your own guidelines, or the standards generally accepted by your local club, to assess par, since many, many disc golf courses set their posted par decades ago, when discs like Rocs and Cyclones were the fastest thing yet invented. Few people other than beginners will play par 4 to a hole under 400', unless there's a serious dog-leg that forces a second shot from the fairway. The PDGA has published some par standards on their website, but not everybody agrees with their standards, and until they have more power over the course designers, they're not likely to always get their way.

I think you are forgetting a few aspects of disc golf, or you don't know them yet.

How very very wrong you are.

Let's just list a few different variables of a shot:
-Disc selection (HUGE): both necessary knowledge of the discs you have, the distances you can throw each, the lines you can shape them with, and the stabilities. Such as being able to throw your most understable disc on a hyzer line.
-Wind: Dramatically changes disc selection. Wind on a long open shot forces you to throw with tons of spin to keep the disc moving in the direction you sent it, and not where mother nature intended. Also changes the stability in which your disc acts (headwind will make more understable, tailwind more overstable)
-Landing: skip from a hyzer, soft land so you don't go into a hazard.
-Obstacles: There are MANY MANY more obstacles in dg than bg.
-OAT
-Release point
-Reachback amount
-Power
-Snap amount
-Shot type: bh or fh hyzer/anhyzer, thumber, tomahawk, bh or fh roller, + more but those are the most common.
-footing
-grip
-weight distribution
-Disc angle

There's probably more but I don't care to continue.

 

[Noill]

^^^ all true
some players can easily drive off with control over 400' or near it so I just see a distance of 400' or better being a par 4 as an arbitrary invention. Whatever the tee sign says pro par 3 just works...why you ask... b/c everyone is playing the same thing.

Now comparing to ball golf, you say that you work for par and play the hole that way. That's just silly. You should know what you can do and aim to sink your ball in as few shots as possible. In the DG world that is just how it's usually done. Most of us know what we can achieve, visualize the shot and then execute. The goal is usually to get it in 2 throws. If playing safe then 3 throws is the goal. If screwed by a shank well then hell it's 4 shots. We play the hole and we play our ability. The scoring is really just a way to keep track of it at the end of the round and if all holes are considered par 3 then we have a good average of how the round went (keeping in mind that the goal is always to try to get it in 2). Yes, I know some holes are hard and hell even 3 throws may not be enough...but think about the fact that the next guy has the same hole to throw so if you both get it in 4 then what's the problem?

Hell, I'd even play the 845' at Round Lake as a par 3. I'm going to get it in 4 or 5 throws most likely but well that's how it goes... I just have to learn to get bigger D is all.

 

[Nathanbr2]

how is that justified? is it a course used for tournaments and championships? that doesnt even match the guide

nah, just a junky rule of thumb to make the new guys feel better...

and yes, that course (which uses pro par throughout, is used about once every month or two for local tourneys

 

[Olorin]

With some of my newer friends (who have arms that aren't as strong) we play like this

0-399' = par 3
400'+ = Par 4

which puts a better challenge on people who throw 200+'

As long as you're just making up stuff and pulling numbers out of the air why don't you do it like this:
0-199' = par 3
200-299' = Par 4
300-399' = Par 5
That would seem fair to new players who can only throw 200 ft. and think how excited they'll be over all their birdies!
Oh wait, I'm sure there are Sign/Rec pars that already do this...

one of our local courses has a 655' par 3 :wall:

A poster child for why it's intuitively obvious that "Everything is a par 3" is just plain dumb. Even if this was on a Gold level course, if the par was really 3 then even if a top pro could throw 500 ft they'd still have a 155 ft upshot! If you're ever in doubt about the reality of par 4s and 5s just check out the pars at Winthrop Gold for the USDGC.