I think Val got burned.

[wolfmandragon]

Really, a lot of this discussion could have been avoided if the relationship between caddie and player was more defined. The rule should clearly state that any infraction by a caddie will result in punishment on the player.

Additionally, I'm not 100% comfy with the idea that any Joe/Jane Schmoo can be a caddie. Or that caddie can just be brought in mid-round for any reason but injury that makes carrying a bag difficult.

The requirements to qualify as a caddie should be the same as those that qualify one to compete in the tournament.



Preach!

If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, caddies in the PGA (tour level) have to be certified.
For a sport as low key as ours, it could be done with a simple test showing that the applicant knows what rules are expected of said applicant.

 

[BrotherDave]

We have been discussing this for 42 pages.

Dude, total noob move.

UserCP>Thread Display Options>Show 40 posts per page

42 pages, pfft.

 

[pauldst]

Who cares how the PDGA interprets the rule? The PDGA is made up of lowlier lowlives than your average suburban bowling league. The ballots look like the Libertarian party primary. Of course they will misread their own rule because they wrote it thinking it meant something else when even a third grader can follow the logical syntax to the correct conclusion. Unfortunately that is the thing about written rules, you follow them as written not as the beer addled PDGA rules committee pictured them in their own mind's eye.

It would be fun to nominate you for a PDGA position, and even more fun if lots of people voted for you. Then you could wonder whether it was so you could drain the swamp, or because you fit in with all the other swamp critters, or if it was just to mess with you.

 

[lyleoross]

When can we expect your resignation? Today is Friday... always a good day to quit.

I'm going to have to agree with MTL. I don't know Val, and I suspect at the moment of confrontation that the can was empty, but ive gone through the process too. TD's don't want to deal with it, don't want to do the wrong thing and typically ask lots of questions. To get here we have to assume:

A Marshall screwed up, look, empty beer can, better report
The TD screwed up
The PDGA didn't question the TD report in any way
Val knows she's innocent and isn't pursuing the avenues that allow her to expunge the record

Given Val's profile and importance to the sport and the PDGA, I can't see them sitting on no evidence and saying, yup, all good with us.

That's a big chunk of stupidity on everyone's part including Val's. If she didn't do anything, she needs to challenge the finding as is her right. Not for her own sake, but for accuracy and the good of the sport.

 

[lyleoross]

So you are calling Val a liar then?

Really? A person's perspective on such things depends on timing, etc. Are you saying that Val's mom simply picked up a beer can, carried it for thirty minutes as if it had something in it and didn't try and get rid of it? Each position is untested and matters not a wit.

Old guys pick up things during rounds, see it all the time. Beer cans get squished and put in the bag, not carried delicately right side up. Again dubious argument. Easy solution, Val should challenge the punishment if her mother is innocent.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Dude, total noob move.

UserCP>Thread Display Options>Show 40 posts per page

42 pages, pfft.

I tried to do that once. The first time I went into the tourney vids thread it took like five minutes for all of them to load... Been back on noob level since.:thmbup:

 

[JC17393]

You are a board member, correct? If you want people to respect the PDGA, perhaps you should act more professional.

Many of us only have contact with the PDGA here and all the PR is bad. For myself, I have no interest in joining, and the primary reason is from what I have seen go on on DGCR.

This is not an attack on you personally; it is criticism and if you will allow it, constructive.

MTL is not a board member. He is head of the Disciplinary Committee, which is an all volunteer committee.

There is no representation of the PDGA here. At least, no one is here representing the PDGA in an official capacity. If you're taking anything read here as indicative of the organization as a whole, that's on you (and frankly, you're probably putting way too much stock in this discussion forum).

 

[roadtripstuff]

Listening to the UpShot now. Everyone should give it a listen. I couldn't agree more with Jamie and his opinions on this situation.

 

[BlueMonk]

I'm going to have to agree with MTL. I don't know Val, and I suspect at the moment of confrontation that the can was empty, but ive gone through the process too. TD's don't want to deal with it, don't want to do the wrong thing and typically ask lots of questions. To get here we have to assume:

A Marshall screwed up, look, empty beer can, better report
The TD screwed up
The PDGA didn't question the TD report in any way
Val knows she's innocent and isn't pursuing the avenues that allow her to expunge the record

Given Val's profile and importance to the sport and the PDGA, I can't see them sitting on no evidence and saying, yup, all good with us.

That's a big chunk of stupidity on everyone's part including Val's. If she didn't do anything, she needs to challenge the finding as is her right. Not for her own sake, but for accuracy and the good of the sport.

You may want to check out yesterday's Upshot podcast. Apparently, someone approached the PDGA official directly to report the beer, and the PDGA official then took it to the TD himself (I think it was a he, not sure). They talk at length on the podcast about whether that's really appropriate for the PDGA official to be doing, rather than just directing the person who reported the incident to "take it to the TD."

 

[roadtripstuff]

You may want to check out yesterday's Upshot podcast. Apparently, someone approached the PDGA official directly to report the beer, and the PDGA official then took it to the TD himself (I think it was a he, not sure). They talk at length on the podcast about whether that's really appropriate for the PDGA official to be doing, rather than just directing the person who reported the incident to "take it to the TD."

To take it further with an example from a couple of years ago. I was competing in the AM World Mixed doubles in 2106. After we were finished and all scorecards had been turned into the TD, one team was given their scorecard back to correct a scoring error with no penalties applied, which led to a sudden death playoff. The TD of the event was a PDGA employee and flat out didn't follow the rules.

In the end the team that corrected their score lost anyway, but it is a prime example of picking and choosing when or not they follow the rules.

 

[The Last DJ]

Do you folks think one could be penalized for picking up trash on a course? I consider that once in awhile because I take pride in my home course and will always try to pick up any garbage I see out there. Sometimes I'll find an entire sixer of beer cans from disrespectful players and I'll throw them in the bag and take them to the next trash can I find. I suppose that could get you in trouble now that I'm reading about the Val incident...

 

[lyleoross]

So for the life of me a search on youtub doesnt get me the upshot podcast. I can't judge but yeah, telephone is a bad idea. Im still having trouble believing the TD made a call with no interviews and the PDGA let that ride. If, and that if will be a certainly in four or five posts, that happened, no interviews, just marshall to td to dq, then yes, stoopid move imo.

 

[onemilemore]

You may want to check out yesterday's Upshot podcast. Apparently, someone approached the PDGA official directly to report the beer, and the PDGA official then took it to the TD himself (I think it was a he, not sure). They talk at length on the podcast about whether that's really appropriate for the PDGA official to be doing, rather than just directing the person who reported the incident to "take it to the TD."

PDGA officials work in lockstep with TDs. I honestly thought Jamie's take on this was a bit off, but he is entitled to his thoughts on the matter. How does it end up looking if someone reports to the PDGA, isn't happy with the response, and then still goes to the TD? It looks like PDGA isn't being a partner working in good faith, and that isn't good for anyone involved in the process.

I understand all of this is emotional, and it totally sucks. But to think that when someone reports a concern to the PDGA that they should just turf it to the TD instead of communicating it to the TD is iffy in my opinion. And all the other things he talked about on the show - lines, crowd control, etc. - is also something PDGA and tournament staff work together on.

 

[SonicGuy]

I can just picture the resignation letter now...

Post of the thread

 

[pearlybakerbest]

So for the life of me a search on youtub doesnt get me the upshot podcast. I can't judge but yeah, telephone is a bad idea. Im still having trouble believing the TD made a call with no interviews and the PDGA let that ride. If, and that if will be a certainly in four or five posts, that happened, no interviews, just marshall to td to dq, then yes, stoopid move imo.

Go to ultiworlds website.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

So for the life of me a search on youtub doesnt get me the upshot podcast.

There's this thing called google that will find it for you, I promise. I assume you are still using AskJeeves.com.

 

[lyleoross]

There's this thing called google that will find it for you, I promise. I assume you are still using AskJeeves.com.

Who is this Jeeves? I can't find it anywhere using Lynx.

I used YouTube, what can I say. Thanks.

 

[dashiellx]

Do you folks think one could be penalized for picking up trash on a course? I consider that once in awhile because I take pride in my home course and will always try to pick up any garbage I see out there. Sometimes I'll find an entire sixer of beer cans from disrespectful players and I'll throw them in the bag and take them to the next trash can I find. I suppose that could get you in trouble now that I'm reading about the Val incident...

I honestly would think that any course hosing an NT would have been policed by the local club and the chances of finding any empties next to null. My local course does this for the C tiers it hosts.

 

[lyleoross]

So, I'm not all the way through the UpShot yet, but, well, if Val plays down by the parking lot, and asks her mother, who's in the parking lot, to come along, why does her mother carry an empty can out of the parking lot with her to go along with Val? I mean if it's empty and all, why not drop it in a garbage can or leave it in the lot? Should I figure that she had a special relationship with that can? Things that make you go hmmm.

And now I have two stories. Jamie's from Val that she picked up her mom in the parking lot, and Val's that she randomly pulled her mother out of the viewing crowd, four holes to go. What to believe?

And of course we have the, she found the can on the course thing, and the PDGA booted Val for her mother cleaning the course and Val didn't have the wherewithal to say, "Um, my mom just picked that up."

Now, let's be really clear, Jamie spends several minutes dissecting the PDGA for being ambiguous. But at no point does he think about the other side being ambiguous. Jamie spends some time talking about this being a pattern when indeed, there is no evidence that the PDGA has done anything but follow its written rules, repeatedly.

As for his wrap that there is a tragedy because Val didn't get to challenge Paige, well, it matters not squat to the issue. I still don't have any real evidence as to what happened, but a whole lot of if I heard it on the web, it must be true.

 

[Noill]

For me, it isn't "they followed their rules.".
The rules in this case did zero good. It did a great job at causing a stir and making that tournament less enjoyable.