I think Val got burned.

[pauldst]

I guess I don't understand how the political/legal thing plays into it. Val's mom having a beer violated the park regulation no matter what she was doing. Does her caddying a single hole make it more likely that the disc golf tournament be banned from returning? So disc golf spectator with beer = fine, and disc golf caddie with beer = ban? And DQing Val turns that ban back into a fine?

One hole or many, to ignore the breaking of laws/park regulations is behavior that endangers further use of the park, in addition to, and probably more than, the original breaking of the law/regulation. How does the host know that other infractions won't also be ignored?

 

[rj29274]

That was an expensive beer, nonetheless. . .

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Obviously a hyperbolic example, but DQing the caddy doesn't really impact the player.

How do you DQ a caddie? What if the caddy looks right back at the TD and gives him/her the finger and keeps on caddying? If the caddie's infractions can't be charged to the player, then the TD can basically do nothing about caddie violations.

 

[tampabay]

How do you DQ a caddie? What if the caddy looks right back at the TD and gives him/her the finger and keeps on caddying? If the caddie's infractions can't be charged to the player, then the TD can basically do nothing about caddie violations.

That is a good question, I guess asking them to leave and calling the police if they don't? I had never considered it as I try not to act in a way where I won't be asked/forcibly removed from places.

+1

 

[tampabay]

I said that wrong. I try not to get kicked out of places. words are hard.

 

[wolfmandragon]

Beer bad....foot fault ok...

Obey all rules or none

 

[SonicGuy]

How do you DQ a caddie? What if the caddy looks right back at the TD and gives him/her the finger and keeps on caddying? If the caddie's infractions can't be charged to the player, then the TD can basically do nothing about caddie violations.

Pretty much why the rules allow the TD to DQ a player for their caddie's actions. At their discretion.

 

[Golden Tuna]

The TD is in a difficult position to continuously enforce the rules as they're written while not overstepping the boundaries of their volunteer role.

I wasn't there, so maybe someone that was can provide some additional context, but this seems to have escalated quickly. I would think this could start with a conversation and a warning...

Was a warning issued? Was there a conversation about whether Mrs. Jenkins was an actual caddy/representative of the player? Are we dealing with an empty that someone forgot to discard from the bag's cup holder or a blatant disregard for the Park/PDGA rules (opening and drinking beer after beer while on the card? Was the offender(s) reported to the TD, who then took action, or was there some vigilante justice?

According to the letter of the (PDGA) law, I guess none of this context really matters... But, on a human level, I would expect a conversation or courtesy warning first... Of course, if I were competing with the offender, I may feel differently.

 

[deyo7]

I really think the issue you and Sonic both are missing is I feel like you guys are arguing that the rule should be changed. What is the scenario where you think this "discretionary" option should be enforced? never? in that case...you are saying the rule shouldn't exist, which is fine. But I think the TD did absolutely nothing wrong

No, that's not it. I agree the TD did nothing wrong - he had the right to DQ if he saw fit. My issue was that it seemed that many commenters felt that Val must automatically be disqualified when it seems to me that the 3.05C allows the TD to make the call:

3.05C: Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two minute warning until the player's card is turned in. Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension.

IMO, it should read, "MUST" or something of the sort if her/the player's DQ is automatic by extension.

EDIT: Well... after getting caught up on subsequent posts you may already have this cleared up:

So is your complaint that the TD interpreted it this way or that the rules should change? **went back and read, saw you thought the TD could have handled it differently**.

Do you think the rules should change?

And it seems AHagglund already said this, making my post redundant

My interpretation of the rule matches sonicguy's.

The caddie was subject to automatic removal. No doubt about that one. The other rule people referenced states that the player is directly responsible for their caddie. Yes, but that's not quite the same thing as saying that any punishment given to the caddie must also be given to the player. The part of the rule that directly references sharing punishments does not use the word "must". It reads:

"Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension."

It seems to me that the PDGA intentionally left some wiggle room there.

Bottom line is I think the TD was well within his rights to DQ Jenkins, but he would have also been within his rights not to.

 

[BionicRib]

Pretty much why the rules allow the TD to DQ a player for their caddie's actions. At their discretion.

Kind of like setting par...

 

[kenjiac]

I can think of many courtesy violations by a caddy I would DQ someone for. Imagine if I paid my caddie to yell during my opponent's putt. DQ for sure.

Totally missed missed the point of that post. The "may" is not in regards to whether or not the player gets DQ'd for the what the caddy did it's in regards to the infraction and punishment that may get player DQ'd.

 

[DanGarion]

Totally missed missed the point of that post. The "may" is not in regards to whether or not the player gets DQ'd for the what the caddy did it's in regards to the infraction and punishment that may get player DQ'd.

Exactly, some people just don't understand how this stuff works. Not all conduct violations are automatic DQs. The word may here is reminding the reader that the violation itself determines the type of penalty. For those penalties that ARE DQs and Suspensions, you will be DQd or Suspended. For those that are courtesy violations, you will be given the courtesy violation. That is why they use may in this text. It is making sure the reader understands that there are violations that your caddy can perform that may lead to a DQ or Suspension.

 

[rj29274]

Was it really an empty can in a koozie???

 

[Chaz58]

Pardon me for playing devil's advocate here, but wth does anyone need a caddy for disc golf? I have seen just a couple when watching the pro tournaments and they are usually caddying for the one guy that is stinking up the card he is playing on. I've never seen McBeth, Wysocki, Conrad, etc. etc. have a need for a caddy on the disc golf course. Heck, I'm 60, in just fair shape and carry a fairly heavy bag (VooDoo) when carrying my discs, water, wallet, etc. Thing must way close to 20 pounds!

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Exactly, some people just don't understand how this stuff works. Not all conduct violations are automatic DQs. The word may here is reminding the reader that the violation itself determines the type of penalty. For those penalties that ARE DQs and Suspensions, you will be DQd or Suspended. For those that are courtesy violations, you will be given the courtesy violation. That is why they use may in this text. It is making sure the reader understands that there are violations that your caddy can perform that may lead to a DQ or Suspension.

Well, that's one way to read it. The word "may" can indicate that the punishment is permissive, not based on the violation, but with respect to the conjunction "and." There is certainly nothing in the rule to indicate that whoever drafted it intended one interpretation over the other. As with other things in the rules, if the PDGA wanted to take away any discretion of the TD to hand out a punishment less than disqualification for a caddie violation that would result a disqualification for a player, all the PDGA had to do was say that, e.g., "if a caddie violates any rule that would result in the mandatory disqualification of a player, the caddie and player whom the caddie is assisting shall both be disqualified" or something like that.

 

[fasteddy8170]

The rules don't say "consumption", they say "possession". And if the beer was in Valerie's bag--if her caddy put the beer in a cup holder in Valerie's bag, then it is Valerie's beer . . . no matter if it was her caddy or another player or a spectator drinking it. The beer being put in one of the cup holders in Valerie's bag would constitute "possession" by Valerie because it's not the caddy's bag, it's Valerie's bag.

 

[wolfmandragon]

Pardon me for playing devil's advocate here, but wth does anyone need a caddy for disc golf? I have seen just a couple when watching the pro tournaments and they are usually caddying for the one guy that is stinking up the card he is playing on. I've never seen McBeth, Wysocki, Conrad, etc. etc. have a need for a caddy on the disc golf course. Heck, I'm 60, in just fair shape and carry a fairly heavy bag (VooDoo) when carrying my discs, water, wallet, etc. Thing must way close to 20 pounds!

Actually McBeth uses a caddy often.

 

[DiscFifty]

I've never seen McBeth, Wysocki, Conrad, etc. etc. have a need for a caddy on the disc golf course.

You're not watching enough disc golf videos.

 

[DiscFifty]

The rules don't say "consumption", they say "possession". And if the beer was in Valerie's bag--if her caddy put the beer in a cup holder in Valerie's bag, then it is Valerie's beer . . . no matter if it was her caddy or another player or a spectator drinking it. The beer being put in one of the cup holders in Valerie's bag would constitute "possession" by Valerie because it's not the caddy's bag, it's Valerie's bag.

Or if it WAS in the caddy's bag... it's still the player's responsibility.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

Pardon me for playing devil's advocate here, but wth does anyone need a caddy for disc golf? I have seen just a couple when watching the pro tournaments and they are usually caddying for the one guy that is stinking up the card he is playing on. I've never seen McBeth, Wysocki, Conrad, etc. etc. have a need for a caddy on the disc golf course. Heck, I'm 60, in just fair shape and carry a fairly heavy bag (VooDoo) when carrying my discs, water, wallet, etc. Thing must way close to 20 pounds!

Mcbeth always has a caddy. That tall skinny dude. Wysocki has a cart.

Multi day multi round tournaments on long courses. Why wouldn't you? Some people don't want to incorporate another person to their play and some do. That simple really.

I get tired lifting my bag 3 times per hole x 18 holes. Make that 3 days in a row. I'd take a caddy. *i also am a tradesman and work all week long so there's that too...