Illegal putting?

[sidewinder22]

Do you ever call yourself on it?

You can't.

 

[Pbmercil]

I think what it boils down to is that a lot of people have no idea WHY a step putt or jump putt is beneficial. The exaggerated follow thru adds more energy to the kinetic chain into your throw, making it easier to throw the disc into the bucket. If your front foot is slamming into the ground during release, you've lost any kinetic advantage. If you've flying thru the air trying to release a putt, you've lost all the kinetic advantage that is supposed to be generated by the jump.

 

[John Hansen]

Do you ever call yourself on it?

Good question. No.

 

[Jenga54]

Therein lies one of disc golf's problems. If you want be professional/taken seriously, your top level performers shouldn't be policing themselves.

In another quickly growing sport - Ultimate - it is based on a Spirit of the Game, self officiating. However in the bigs, they now have spotter (or whatever they call them) to make judgement calls when there's a dispute. (Although there's a pretty elaborate Roberts Rules of Order type system for calling fouls, contested or uncontested, etc.)

In old golf - for example - if a player goes to make a putt, or a sand wedge, and "double hits" the ball - is that self officiated, or do they have some sort of outside official that can call that?

 

[araytx]

Who's going to call it when they miss?

Who's going to wait to see if they miss or make???

The few times I've made the call (I think 3 in my life) I've called it immediately. So I didn't know when the call was made

 

[araytx]

Thing is though, if that foot hits the ground before release, it's a disadvantage to the thrower at that point.

By rule, that doesn't matter.

Dang, the disc golf community will sure be upset when they hear about this!

It's surprising to me that the four-time world champion has been consistently breaking the rules...yet none of the savvy professionals who compete against him on a regular basis have noticed! Good thing we have lyleoross behind that keyboard to enlighten everybody.

Talk about a Roseanne Rosannadanna moment.

 

[Jenga54]

Dang, the disc golf community will sure be upset when they hear about this!

It's surprising to me that the four-time world champion has been consistently breaking the rules...yet none of the savvy professionals who compete against him on a regular basis have noticed! Good thing we have lyleoross behind that keyboard to enlighten everybody.

hmm, who plays frisbee named paul anyway?

 

[Jenga54]

https://m.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/30jfyy/paul_ulibarri_is_a_damn_cheater_every_jump_putt/

Result #5 from Google "Paul Ulibarri"

 

[sidewinder22]

Who's going to wait to see if they miss or make???

The few times I've made the call (I think 3 in my life) I've called it immediately. So I didn't know when the call was made

I've never seen it take more than a couple seconds to hit the ground, most drives hit the ground in less than 10 seconds. You have some time to call it.

 

[josephreese]

Putting in the circle you have to "maintain balance" before you can follow through.

Right. I suppose I am focusing on the first part of the suggestion, that both feet would need to remain behind the lie before release. (Outside the circle, the player would not need to demonstrate balance after release.)

 

[MichaelWebster]

If we assume that our top pros are the most knowledgeable about disc golf body mechanics and rules applications, then maybe we need to ask why they don't call it? I have seen many foot faults called on fairway shots, or falling putts, but never on step putts. Also, I have called foot faults this year, one on an Innova sponsored pro, but I have never seen a step-putt foot fault. I think that some step putters sometimes hit grass in front of their lie, which I would call if I saw in person, but generally they are good putts, including Uli. I would never adopt that style because I feel like it's a stretch of the spirit of the game, but that is a personal decision for myself, not a rule I can impose on others. Pros don't call it because they (generally) don't believe it's a rules violation.

 

[sidewinder22]

Pros don't call it because they (generally) don't believe it's a rules violation.

That and/or they believe it's trivial or negligible.

 

[wims]

...
Pros don't call it because they (generally) don't believe it's a rules violation.

I think it's mostly that they don't want to be "that guy", especially over something that probably isn't even helping the rule infringer

 

[DiscLoser1]

I think it's mostly that they don't want to be "that guy", especially over something that probably isn't even helping the rule infringer

I think it's because they like Uli (aren't he and Doss considered the nicest guys on the tour) so they don't want to call it on him, and they don't want to call it on Feldberg because they don't want to hear him talk about it for the next 5 years...

I watch a fair number of tourney vids, but can't think of anyone else that step putts...?

Anyone? And how legal do those other guys appear compared to Uli and Feldy?

 

[sidewinder22]

I think Schwebby stopped step putting.

 

[Pbmercil]

Anyone? And how legal do those other guys appear compared to Uli and Feldy?

JohnE McCray frequently uses a variation on the step putt. Pat Brown step putts. A lot of guys do a step from a straddle stance outside the circle. I'm sure there are a lot more.

Honestly I've always thought Feldy was clearly 100% good.

 

[MichaelWebster]

I think it's mostly that they don't want to be "that guy", especially over something that probably isn't even helping the rule infringer

But they will call foot faults on fairway throws and falling putts anytime they see them.

 

[DiscLoser1]

JohnE McCray frequently uses a variation on the step putt. Pat Brown step putts. A lot of guys do a step from a straddle stance outside the circle. I'm sure there are a lot more.

Honestly I've always thought Feldy was clearly 100% good.

Huh, JohnE's ridiculous turbos must have distracted me, I don't remember him using a step. Don't know if I've seen PB step either.

The straddle step doesn't really apply in this 'argument', because they're pretty clearly pivoting and releasing on the plant foot while the other comes forward. It's easier to pass the eye test. Even Wysocki would be a step putter by that definition, with his side step. I was looking for more in the Feldy/Uli mold.

Feldy always does look 'good'; my thing is, he's not that consistently making putts with it, actually not consistent at all. Was he killing it with the step back in the mid 00's when he was winning USDGC and Worlds?

 

[Jenga54]

This thread about Illegal Putting has me thinking about my needed form for long putts.

No matter the person, everyone has a limit, a "no man's land" where it's too far for a regular putt, but too close for a throw.

I do too much lift and wind up with an anny putt which I hate. I need a more controlled body weight transfer for around 50-60 and a step putt might do it. My putt jumps just wind up going up, which is unhelpful.

 

[BrotherDave]

Right. I suppose I am focusing on the first part of the suggestion, that both feet would need to remain behind the lie before release. (Outside the circle, the player would not need to demonstrate balance after release.)

This would make all straddle putts illegal. Also all but the narrowest of staggered putts (practically only in-line putts where both feet are on the line of play would be legal, a very uncommon putting stance in my observation).

----------------------

A lot of good posts made already. I'm transitioning more towards a step-putt myself because it feels like a more efficient (less moving parts) follow-through type putt than your typical putt-jump (lunge wildly) type. It becomes immediately apparent once you do step-putts that if your off-foot hits ground before you release the disc that you royally screwed up, completely negates any advantage of the style whatsoever. That can't be overemphasized. That's probably the biggest reason why pros aren't called on it very often. Other pros know that if a step-putter screws up his putt by coming down too early there's a 99% chance he misses his putt. A 1st time violation gives the putter a do-over without a penalty and a good step-putter is much less likely to screw up his mechanics twice on the same putt, probably only have a goof-up once a round. Since every stroke is precious, it's just not likely that competitors would call it unless a guy was particularly sloppy that round.

A step-putter touching blades of grass with off-foot before releasing I don't think is grounds for calling a foot fault b/c blades of grass are not generally considered the playing surface:

Playing Surface
A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. In cases where it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision shall be made by the Director or an official.

The 'stretching the spirit of the game' rhetoric is just laughably absurd IMO. Semantically, you can call foot faults on virtually any throw if you wanted to be an epic turd. Just b/c step-putting is less conventional doesn't make it less in the spirit of the game anymore than turbo putters, rollers, or guys throwing overhands (some think those forehanders are cheaters, too, right?). There is no official dogma of putting technique, brought forth from upon high by the prophet Steady Ed and canonized by the Council of Frisbea. If it's within the rules, it's within the rules, period.

The only really tricky part about step-putting is doing it legally within the circle (if you need to, benefits may not outweigh the extra movement, YMMV). But it can be done legally as long as your follow-through isn't carried past your lie. E.g. you can walk up to your lie, put your supporting point of contact on the LoP near (on) the extent of the 30 cm allowed and follow-through to the side while demonstrating balance, etc. Basically start staggered and finish straddled. This is why expanding the putting circle wouldn't really get rid of step-putters IMO, they would just refine their technique so that their momentum doesn't exceed 30 cm.