In need of backhand guidance: One year of playing

[CEP1295]

Greetings everyone,

I have been a lurker of this forum for a few months now, and have finally decided to post videos of my own form. I began playing in August of 2021, and started off playing forehand only for several months. The backhand seems so elusive to me. I have touched 400' flat on occasion, but I feel inconsistent due to trying so many different tips and techniques. I've reviewed many of the form drills posted throughout this forum, but I feel as if I've hit a wall and need my own form to be critiqued. Thank you all for the wealth of knowledge.

Side view: https://youtu.be/8Hb7pxwyHUQ
Side view slo motion: https://youtu.be/8GvGGbinus4
Rear view:https://youtu.be/a_rLJl1R1L4
Rear view slow motion: https://youtu.be/rF1rrzk6OGk

 

[CEP1295]

Fixed slow mo videos:

Side: https://youtu.be/Pnbukbd-j5A
Rear: https://youtu.be/qGEzh_2lzSM

 

[sidewinder22]

Your arm is pulling in/retracting, instead of swinging/hammering out away. Note how your elbow comes into your body.


Your rear leg is locked out straight.

 

[CEP1295]

Thank you for the insight! I've taken the past month on trying to lose the old habits, and build new ones (specifically based on a lot of the drills you recommended as well as others in your catalogue). Here are two videos of where I'm kind of at.

The first one here is from a round I played this week. This shot was a ~320ft uphill ~20ft hyzer flip with the Axiom Insanity. I mainly focused on the Hershyzer drill by throwing my butt into the throw, and letting my body weight do the work. I was happy with the results, but I know there's still more left on the table. The specific issue I'm having is still falling back onto my left leg instead of balanced. Link: https://youtube.com/shorts/ClKgy3gevFw

In this second video, I'm utilizing the hammer to forget about what I know throwing a disc. Key points of focus in this were
- don't bring in the arm, try and swing the arm wide and let it "collapse" on its own. Slash thru drill.
- focusing on posture, making sure my feet are a neutral distance and pointed in a comfortable direction.
- focusing on loading the bow with the backswing and again bringing my rear targetward.
- I toyed around with a more dramatic swim move with the left hand. I was imagining I was in a pool and doing a swim stroke with my left hand, and decided to throw that into the swing.

Overall happy with the progress I've felt, but I know there's still inefficiency in my swing. Again, falling backwards, head wanting to rotate, trying to twist (although this is happening less and less). Link: https://youtu.be/MzsLQwrLWTQ

Any more advice will be greatly appreciate. Need to know if I'm heading in the direction of power, accuracy, and physical efficiency/health. Thank you!

 

[Brychanus]

When you transition out of the backswing, your weight falls forward on top of your plant leg. Instead, you want it to transition the weight through the instep of the rear foot and evert with the rear foot into the plant and crush. You want the same action as found in Hershyzer regardless of your stance:



Watch how he completes the full Buttwipe. Notice how the rear leg acts:



This action allows the weight of your body and leg collect forward quickly into an abrupt crush.

Your off arm looks a little overcooked. Bring it in more toward the rear hip relaxed than in front of you.

 

[CEP1295]

Thank you for the insight, Brychanus! The wipe drill never really clicked until last night when I decided to give it a go, and I think I had some solid results from it.

First thing I noticed was my balance issue was fixed, no longer falling on that back foot as a result of the weight transfer. I did an exercise of doing the wipe drill against the wall - first in a neutral stance then from Hershyzer. Then I would do it against a wood beam that's at waist height. Then I went to the net with a hammer to feel the motion. From there, repeat for a few hours. I recorded some of it from this morning and will link it down below. A few differences I noticed was that I could fall butt-wards a lot better, and I wasn't trying to twist and spin myself around, instead it was a very clean weight transfer that started up - swung down - and finished up taking all the weight from by back foot. I disregarded the left hand movement to focus on this drill, but honestly the left arm started doing it's own thing and looks pretty natural for now. I also noticed that I could feel the throw of the hammer more fluidly, and a "path" for the swing opened up and I could exert some arm force into the last few stages of the swing. Overall happy with how it looks/feels, would love to get some more advice on it. To me, it seems Gurthie-esque, but that may just be me trying to manifest GG distance lol.

In both of the videos linked below, the main goal was working out the muscle memory, the butt wipe drill, and being slow and fluid.

This one I focused more on staying coiled and not necessarily starting the swing with my body weight. It looks better than what I've been doing, but it still looks a little forced.
Video One:https://youtu.be/uRsfHos4ixU


In this video, I wasn't focused on anything except the weight of the hammer, the weight of my body, and the wipe drill. I start the swing before I even plant, but I don't think it's bad since it was a natural swing as a result of the weight being transferred.
Video Two: https://youtu.be/wxKAcND0N2M

 

[Brychanus]

Watch Buttwipe again and compare what his leg is doing to yours. It needs to help swing the body up and back with the backswing. It then needs to help your body drop directly and quickly into the plant. There's exactly one fastest way to do it. Your leg also looks too stiff and already posted in the backswing. Try hopping up and down on it first, then ask yourself how that action could help the backswing.

Might help to come back up in the other direction:

 

[CEP1295]

Watch Buttwipe again and compare what his leg is doing to yours. It needs to help swing the body up and back with the backswing. It then needs to help your body drop directly and quickly into the plant. There's exactly one fastest way to do it. Your leg also looks too stiff and already posted in the backswing. Try hopping up and down on it first, then ask yourself how that action could help the backswing.

Might help to come back up in the other direction:

Are you referring to my left (non-plant) leg? It feels like I am loading up and back in the backswing and then dropping into the plant, and I am not necessarily seeing it in my videos. If you could clarify so I can better understand where you're coming from.

 

[Brychanus]

Feel vs. real. There are many ways to feel leverage in the drive leg and drop into the plant. I've done it wrong many ways. Only one way is optimal.

Here's the peak of your backswing vs. SW22. Notice that your leg is already driving your body forward when you reach the peak of a too-flat backswing whereas his has a vertical rear shin angle with his CoG stacked over the rear leg. SW22 is patiently waiting for the upper body to coil back in leverage on the drive leg before coming forward. You are posting up and pushing your body forward with the drive leg before the backswing completes.

Swing back with more tilt across the shoulders and allow it to help pull you up. When you hit the peak, Hershyzer and buttwipe forward.

Keep doing swivel stairs and pay close attention to how it forces your rear leg to interact with your body to keep you from falling out of balance forward down the stairs.

 

[CEP1295]

Feel vs. real. There are many ways to feel leverage in the drive leg and drop into the plant. I've done it wrong many ways. Only one way is optimal.

Here's the peak of your backswing vs. SW22. Notice that your leg is already driving your body forward when you reach the peak of a too-flat backswing whereas his has a vertical rear shin angle with his CoG stacked over the rear leg. SW22 is patiently waiting for the upper body to coil back in leverage on the drive leg before coming forward. You are posting up and pushing your body forward with the drive leg before the backswing completes.

Swing back with more tilt across the shoulders and allow it to help pull you up. When you hit the peak, Hershyzer and buttwipe forward.

Keep doing swivel stairs and pay close attention to how it forces your rear leg to interact with your body to keep you from falling out of balance forward down the stairs.

Ahhhh, I see. With the swivel-stairs, it forces you to keep your upperbody over the leg that's grounded. Is this what you're talking about? I can feel that while doing the swivel-stairs, but I think I refrained from doing it while throwing cause it feels more like I'm trying to rotate my upper-body when that's not the case at all.

 

[CEP1295]

Here's an update after a lot of working into the net and a few rounds. I played some courses today and threw standstill backhands only which is something I've never done but feel like I had a lot of success with. I only lost 50-75 ft off my total distance, but was incredibly accurate. The lack of distance lost leads me to believe that I'm not using my body correct enough to use the run-up. I focused on more butt-wipe drills and stair swivels.

This first video is from one of the rounds earlier: a 390ft hole, and the drive was with an axiom insanity and landed ~60ft short on a wide hyzer flip line. I already noticed some issues in this, I wasn't really loading my weight as well as I could and relied on a lot of arm strength and rotation, but was still further than I thought I could throw standstill.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WbmK2RS44FA?feature=share

This second video is from net-work after the rounds. I worked on more swivel stairs and looked at standstill hammer throw drills.
https://youtu.be/OqKIMXzJeWA

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to keep the hammer head flush to nail on wall, so when you release/hammer thru, it spins horizontal. You are twisting the hammer head off axis/plane.

Also note how you are tipping over top your front leg and dragging the hammer, instead of sending the hammer out away from you braced up behind front leg like Olympic hammer toss.

 

[CEP1295]

You need to keep the hammer head flush to nail on wall, so when you release/hammer thru, it spins horizontal. You are twisting the hammer head off axis/plane.

Also note how you are tipping over top your front leg and dragging the hammer, instead of sending the hammer out away from you braced up behind front leg like Olympic hammer toss.

Thank you for the reply. I don't think I'm fully understanding where I'm going wrong. Is it an issue with me loading my swing, or the swing itself?

 

[Brychanus]

^Both. I'd focus on swinging the hammer head on axis first. Think like smashing a nail out to your side. That often helps the rest of the body settle better, we will see

 

[CEP1295]

Here is some more clips from today. I realized what Seabass22 was saying about tilting over my brace leg and put that into mind when throwing. In these clips (three in this one video) I focused on keeping my arm out for a wide swing, focused on leaning/turning back (butt-wipe) instead of just rotating shoulders, and imagined I was hitting a nail horizontally. A lot of pop in these throws, but they aren't the smoothest yet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dJSCP-AS_k?feature=share

 

[Brychanus]

^Keeping on ya about the real point of learning hammer swings. The same hammer head axis issue shows up in that throw. Notice that the disc wing is coming up toward the sky (forearm supinating) and your shoulder is opening as you enter the pocket.

FWIW the only way I can reliably correct this when it creeps back into my swings is to return to hammer swings. You really need to get it deep into your body that you're smashing like a hammer with a precise hit point.

The other thing you might try is slow way down and consciously focus on pronating the forearm more heading into the pocket. Exaggerate it the other way to overcome the habit.

Slow drills like this are really helpful to teach your body to perform the actions with full control when certain fundamentals are wonky.

 

[CEP1295]

^Keeping on ya about the real point of learning hammer swings. The same hammer head axis issue shows up in that throw. Notice that the disc wing is coming up toward the sky (forearm supinating) and your shoulder is opening as you enter the pocket.

FWIW the only way I can reliably correct this when it creeps back into my swings is to return to hammer swings. You really need to get it deep into your body that you're smashing like a hammer with a precise hit point.

The other thing you might try is slow way down and consciously focus on pronating the forearm more heading into the pocket. Exaggerate it the other way to overcome the habit.

Slow drills like this are really helpful to teach your body to perform the actions with full control when certain fundamentals are wonky.

Greetings again,

Thank you for the analogy of hitting the nail. I worked into the net again with standstill hammer throws while envisioning that. I noticed that the action of my arm felt longer, and when the hammer came out it felt like my arm/shoulder were closed. A question I have about this drill is:

- if thinking about hitting a nail, where do you want that "nail on a post" to be? if you are standing parallel to your target, is it in the 2:00 position or is it best to think about it when you are in the backswing and the nail is the target.

I can definitely see the difference in the ending stages of the swing in the video which is great. A lot of muscle memory makes it difficult to not open up, but I'll definitely keep this drill in mind when I start noticing that.

Another point I wanted to mention was that in some of the clips in the video, it look's like I am still wanting to spin around before planting. I notice how GG before planting comes in with his butt towards the target and he plants his foot slightly closed and doesn't try to spin his body last second before planting. I don't know if this is bad muscle memory from my years playing baseball as a left handed hitter (t-ball through beginning of High School). I know Sidewinder22 looked like I was trying to drag the hammer through instead of swinging it and repelling it out. I want to see if that's what it still looks like.

https://youtu.be/Aw0_w_g2V1I

 

[Brychanus]

Greetings again,

Thank you for the analogy of hitting the nail. I worked into the net again with standstill hammer throws while envisioning that. I noticed that the action of my arm felt longer, and when the hammer came out it felt like my arm/shoulder were closed. A question I have about this drill is:

- if thinking about hitting a nail, where do you want that "nail on a post" to be? if you are standing parallel to your target, is it in the 2:00 position or is it best to think about it when you are in the backswing and the nail is the target.

I can definitely see the difference in the ending stages of the swing in the video which is great. A lot of muscle memory makes it difficult to not open up, but I'll definitely keep this drill in mind when I start noticing that.

Another point I wanted to mention was that in some of the clips in the video, it look's like I am still wanting to spin around before planting. I notice how GG before planting comes in with his butt towards the target and he plants his foot slightly closed and doesn't try to spin his body last second before planting. I don't know if this is bad muscle memory from my years playing baseball as a left handed hitter (t-ball through beginning of High School). I know Sidewinder22 looked like I was trying to drag the hammer through instead of swinging it and repelling it out. I want to see if that's what it still looks like.

https://youtu.be/Aw0_w_g2V1I

Regarding the nail on a post, for me I had to actually strike a target and learn how it relates to slinging a disc. If your foot is planted at 90 degrees to the line of play, for me, it's somewhere out forward in front of me. I couldn't figure it out until I actually hit stuff. That also taught my body what the actual hit or release point of the throw is. You might do the same. It's the same thing you want to achieve if you actually release the hammer - similar stance and release point:



Regarding GG and spinning: never, ever try to spin your body. The rotations are part of the cause and effect of moving the body to get that huge hit on the disc with your body moving laterally. You need to learn to laterally stride with force into the plant. The rotations happen on their own when you do it correctly.






The proper hammer throw or disc smash is lined up like this -

It's a linear body move that involves natural rotations among body parts. It is not a rotational or spinning move. Sorry to be blunt about that, but people keep coming up with alternate ways of doing it. They're wrong. I know because I've tried them all, as have some others around here (notably SW22). The only way I have ever punched a hole in my punching bag with a hammer is swinging like Simon or Eveliina do there - with maximum lateral strides to generate easy force. You want to learn to do the same thing with a disc for maximum smash.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

 

[CEP1295]

Regarding the nail on a post, for me I had to actually strike a target and learn how it relates to slinging a disc. If your foot is planted at 90 degrees to the line of play, for me, it's somewhere out forward in front of me. I couldn't figure it out until I actually hit stuff. That also taught my body what the actual hit or release point of the throw is. You might do the same. It's the same thing you want to achieve if you actually release the hammer - similar stance and release point:



Regarding GG and spinning: never, ever try to spin your body. The rotations are part of the cause and effect of moving the body to get that huge hit on the disc with your body moving laterally. You need to learn to laterally stride with force into the plant. The rotations happen on their own when you do it correctly.






The proper hammer throw or disc smash is lined up like this -

It's a linear body move that involves natural rotations among body parts. It is not a rotational or spinning move. Sorry to be blunt about that, but people keep coming up with alternate ways of doing it. They're wrong. I know because I've tried them all, as have some others around here (notably SW22). The only way I have ever punched a hole in my punching bag with a hammer is swinging like Simon or Eveliina do there - with maximum lateral strides to generate easy force. You want to learn to do the same thing with a disc for maximum smash.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

No need to be sorry about bluntness, I'm aware that spinning isn't the correct form, just a bad habit to break.

 

[CEP1295]

Alright,

after reading the past couple posts on this thread, and paying attention to the mention of linear throws, I tried a new swing with the hammer trying to throw it "linearly to my body". Now, I don't know exactly what is meant by the linearity of the throw, but I tried it and will link the video of what I was doing. I do have some questions now about it:

1. When throwing the hammer, to have the head of it hit a nail flush, am I trying to swing it on a horizontal plane of my body, or a more down to up vertical throw.

2. How should I grip the hammer to throw it so that it best reflects throwing a disc? I would throw the hammer, then throw the disc, but if I were to grip the disc as I am throwing the hammer, the bottom plate of the disc moves target-ward the entire time and skies upward.

Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding anything being taught here.

Link (linear hammer throw???) : https://youtu.be/Hph_JTfTmDY