In need of backhand guidance: One year of playing

[CEP1295]

After doing some more net-work, I decided to go out to the course and film most of the tee shots. Link: https://youtu.be/_k0WU-zq7dc

- First two clips were from a 400 ft hole that needs a big left to right shot that never comes out of the turn. The first shot was with a an MVP wave that I hyzer-flipped to turn, and I think it was probably one my highest velocity throws. It felt really smooth, and the fact that it reached 400 on turn made me think it had a lot of distance left on it. The second clip was the same shot just with an MVP insanity for a more flat to turn.

- Second two clips were a 380 ft downhill shot that requires a skinny gap to be hit either to left or right of a tree. Both were fairway driver hyzer flips.

- Fourth clip was a flat to turn.

- Fifth was a one-step throw into the net.

Overall, this was the most amount of progress I have ever made throwing. I could feel the fluid motion of throwing my body weight towards the target line, and planting it against the brace. While I was throwing better than I ever have, I can see there are still things that can be tweaked and tuned for more efficient throwing. Some of the biggest things I noticed were

- Falling back on rear leg after disc is released. I'm not sure if this is because I'm not keeping my center of gravity over the front leg more, or if I'm engaging my back which is throwing me back onto the leg, or if it's just because I'm throwing a new swing and still not balanced on it well enough yet.

- I'm trying to keep my arm/shoulder better closed like if I was swinging a baseball bat, or a hammer, but I noticed that my elbow ends up on the bottom after the disc is released, and that my palm ends facing towards the sky while top throwers palm remains facing down throughout the entire swing.

- I feel like I overall look a little stiff and clunky when throwing, specifically the upper body. It looks like I'm not creating enough space for myself to swing so I end up getting a little jammed.

Overall, incredibly happy with the progress, so thanks to all for the input thus far.

 

[Brychanus]

I like this tempo on you while you clean stuff up.

Your chin's getting a little bunched up into your shoulder in the backswing and I think you end up getting weight trapped behind your brace a bit. Notice your rear leg rebounding back away from the line into the ground behind you - you do want a counterbalance, but you have too much recoil.

Would do some Load the Bow and work on dropping your weight directly into the crush in One Leg Drill. SW22 sometimes calls the feeling of the OLD drop "over the top" if you're not used to it. This is part of what we want to take from the little ollie exercise - drop into the plant resisting collapse into the ground, and swinging forward freely over the front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely improved. Your stride is too leftward/westward away from your center, should be either more outside-in like GG/PP/Kick the Can, or more inside-out like Lizotte and landing more centered/inline on front leg either way.

 

[CEP1295]

Thank you SW22 and Brychanus for the replies, feels good to get reassurance of improvement. I took both of your guys' critiques and put them to work this morning into the net. Unfortunately, muscle memory is the worst thing when you have bad habits, and it felt like I wasn't throwing anywhere near how I was in that last post which was filmed on 10/9. I tried my best to replicate the steps I did to get the swing I had on that day, not sure if it was the same. Definitely hard to tell when throwing into a net compared to a field. Either way, I specifically tried to fix my plant leg coming too far left of my center, so I tried a more GG way of coming out to in with the front leg stride. Here is a video with the results: https://youtu.be/GXpiU-m8Duk

Clips 1&2: One leg throws to practice throwing my weight forward. The first thing I noticed when going back out to practice was wanting to rotate the upper body to throw instead of trying to swing forward and get that perpendicular through to the target. I was working with lots of different speeds and efforts to try and see what felt comfortable.

Clips 3 - 6: These were the one step throws in which I incorporated a more out-in stride. First three clips are around 60-70% speed and effort while the last one was really slow to try and insure I was dropping on the plant before swinging.

Would love some more input to see if this stride is better or not.

Some issues I'm still seeing (not sure if they are actually bad or if they're inefficient) are:

1 - rear leg wants to straighten out, while I see people like GG and when they are striding into the plant, their rear leg seems to be pushing forwards and then come down toward the ground.

2 - Throwing arm still looks like it is opening up instead of staying closed, palm down.

3 - My weight seems to be a bit tipped over the front leg going target-wards in some of the clips.

 

[Brychanus]

When working standstills with or without moving your feet you need to keep reinforcing your crush into the plant and learn leverage into the rear leg in the backswing. In these standstills and the last x-step you showed, your drive leg has the knee extended early. I have a hunch that you might still be compensating for your knee issues.

You want these actions to be deeply encoded in how you move whether you throw on one leg, two leg standstill, or x-step:

Instead, your hips stay somewhat flat and you aren't swinging your CoG very much, but rather sliding them toward the target and away from the target:

In Reverse Stride, look at how seabas' legs are bracing him in the ground, and his legs are helping his body swing back and forth compared to yours. I have the dubious honor of being featured in that video while I was working through similar leg problems:


I struggled with this for weeks and have a specific suggestion. You might try doing this little rocking drill to help get your legs operating more like a dynamic unit again. Notice the difference in how my legs get my body to rock back and forth and cause my spine to swing more between my feet. The leg action you'll use in the throw is not identical, but like the ollie, this will help you get used to how the legs interact with the ground to move the body and relearn how they can take load to rock rather than slide. Then you want to learn to drop into the crush without the knee bend as you hit the ground ("resisting collapse") and let that help direct the force into the swing:



If you do the Crush like Lizotte or Ball kick you are learning a few drills to help you land firmly into the front leg to get leverage for the swing. So definitely work those into a forward stride. Help your body understand where it's trying to end up, which makes it easier to learn how to get there.

 

[CEP1295]

When working standstills with or without moving your feet you need to keep reinforcing your crush into the plant and learn leverage into the rear leg in the backswing. In these standstills and the last x-step you showed, your drive leg has the knee extended early. I have a hunch that you might still be compensating for your knee issues.

You want these actions to be deeply encoded in how you move whether you throw on one leg, two leg standstill, or x-step:

Instead, your hips stay somewhat flat and you aren't swinging your CoG very much, but rather sliding them toward the target and away from the target:

In Reverse Stride, look at how seabas' legs are bracing him in the ground, and his legs are helping his body swing back and forth compared to yours. I have the dubious honor of being featured in that video while I was working through similar leg problems:


I struggled with this for weeks and have a specific suggestion. You might try doing this little rocking drill to help get your legs operating more like a dynamic unit again. Notice the difference in how my legs get my body to rock back and forth and cause my spine to swing more between my feet. The leg action you'll use in the throw is not identical, but like the ollie, this will help you get used to how the legs interact with the ground to move the body and relearn how they can take load to rock rather than slide. Then you want to learn to drop into the crush without the knee bend as you hit the ground ("resisting collapse") and let that help direct the force into the swing:



If you do the Crush like Lizotte or Ball kick you are learning a few drills to help you land firmly into the front leg to get leverage for the swing. So definitely work those into a forward stride. Help your body understand where it's trying to end up, which makes it easier to learn how to get there.

Thank you! In this video, I worked on trying to focus on the legs and not the swing. Beware - it's long, I included a bunch of goofy jumping, swinging, swaying, running, stomping to try and bring some consciousness to the lower body. The editing is second to none, truly a masterpiece. Link: https://youtu.be/KvyBWTjmZ-I

Some things I was thinking about:

1 - I try to take some skills from the butt wipe drill, mainly stabilizing the swing from the inside. Trying to keep the weight and pressure in the insteps of the feet.

2 - I tried to make the push of the left leg to the plant of the right as continuous as possible, to leverage the power of the left leg stride.

3 - I'm trying to exaggerate all movements in this to try and find something that stands out as well as get rid of some bad habits.


Now for some questions that I had from the video:


1: There were two different ways I felt like I could put my weight into the plant, one was a big rolling motion. There were a few clips in the video that show me performing it. Specifically, Brychanus, it was similar to that pogo jump drill video when you swung at the end. It felt like I was keeping all my weight on the left foot / on my hips, making a stride, and then transferred the weight directly on top of my right hip and being more upright on the braced leg. This felt smooth, but I didn't necessarily feel any power. It also opened up more room for the arm to swing. Is this the correct way? I know you've mentioned to place the weight on top of the brace, when I've always gone at it from more of an angle.

2: At some point, I noticed I began to have a little bounce after the plant, which I don't believe is good, probably just a result of my over-exaggerating the resisting my leg collapsing.


Anyways, this is more of a trial and error post, just trying a bunch of things and seeing if it's worth anything. Thank you all for the input.

 

[CEP1295]

Just an update with clips from a round this morning. In this round, I focused on throwing primarily backhands, and never throwing above 60%. I had never thrown further and effortlessly. Glad to see a lot of progress coming through.

Link: https://youtu.be/KQQmAKfPJcQ

I was way more balanced when throwing, especially in the follow through, and I had a much easier time aiming by moving my weight in the direction of play. Overall very happy.

 

[sidewinder22]

Take your x-step with left foot more west to east across tee instead of it moving east to west. Should be easier to step behind that way and sit. Your rear leg remains extended and falls over to left/west.

 

[CEP1295]

Take your x-step with left foot more west to east across tee instead of it moving east to west. Should be easier to step behind that way and sit. Your rear leg remains extended and falls over to left/west.

Is this what you meant by my left foot moving west to east? https://youtu.be/23VjqjGZ32k I took it as when I do my hop from the right leg and go into my left leg, that I'm striding my body more to the right of the tee pad. If this is what you meant, I definitely see how I can just compress my body into the plant.

 

[sidewinder22]

Is this what you meant by my left foot moving west to east? https://youtu.be/23VjqjGZ32k I took it as when I do my hop from the right leg and go into my left leg, that I'm striding my body more to the right of the tee pad. If this is what you meant, I definitely see how I can just compress my body into the plant.

That is better direction. Now you need to sit into the plant like Swivel Stairs.

Your rear leg is locked out straight.

 

[CEP1295]

That is better direction. Now you need to sit into the plant like Swivel Stairs.

I have a couple of questions regarding some concepts of the swivel stairs. Here is a video of me working the swivel stairs with a weighted object in hand. https://youtu.be/qGc0NI0dUTI

First question is, when you say sit in the plant, do you mean that you want to act like you are striding into a chair, where all of the weight would drop through the butt as if you were to jump into a chair? If this is the case, would you want to let your body accelerate a little bit from gravity before catching yourself with your plant? Or do the legs and butt work more as a unit that all from from gravity and you're catching your legs and butt by reacting against the ground.

Second question is do you want the weight to act in a pure down motion (red line in screenshot) or do you want to have the momentum going targetward as well as down at the same time (blue line in screenshot)?

Thanks.

 

[Brychanus]

I have a couple of questions regarding some concepts of the swivel stairs. Here is a video of me working the swivel stairs with a weighted object in hand. https://youtu.be/qGc0NI0dUTI

First question is, when you say sit in the plant, do you mean that you want to act like you are striding into a chair, where all of the weight would drop through the butt as if you were to jump into a chair? If this is the case, would you want to let your body accelerate a little bit from gravity before catching yourself with your plant? Or do the legs and butt work more as a unit that all from from gravity and you're catching your legs and butt by reacting against the ground.

First thing: the drills are something to get you to think less and do more or better. Do it, see what your body naturally does, see if you can get more of whatever that thing is into your throw. They're often exaggerations of ideal actions.

Going after your first one a little bit since I still think about how I conceptualize it & communicate it.

do you mean that you want to act like you are striding into a chair, where all of the weight would drop through the butt as if you were to jump into a chair?

This is one thing you can take away from it. You are getting the stride & drop part of the idea.

If this is the case, would you want to let your body accelerate a little bit from gravity before catching yourself with your plant?

Yes. This is one of several other things to take away. How can you get that same effect when striding on flat ground?

Or do the legs and butt work more as a unit that all from gravity and you're catching your legs and butt by reacting against the ground.

This question is a little murky to me because it depends on what you mean. Yes, there is a ground reaction force, but think of it as the effect of the drive stride & drop assisted by gravity. You are going down from that drive leg into the plant. The plant leg & butt unit are going to resist the stair when you land. How do they do that naturally on the stairs, and can you get that action in the throw?

Second question is do you want the weight to act in a pure down motion (red line in screenshot) or do you want to have the momentum going targetward as well as down at the same time (blue line in screenshot)?

Thanks.

Where does it naturally go when you swing back and forth on the stairs and not fall down? Think about the dynamic balance as you walk back and forth.

 

[CEP1295]

Here is some more net stuff from today. A few things I focused were -

- Crushing the can
- Getting my weight on top of my plant leg
- Getting a more outside - in stride and plant

The biggest thing was focusing on swinging forward. For this, I thought about the butt-wipe drill - stabilizing the swing from the inside, and I was letting my foot break loose from the swing. I also tried keeping my rear leg to swing forwards/laterally and let it come through naturally. The swing definitely looks different, but without throwing a disc I can't tell if it has lead to any more power/efficiency. Definitely getting a little frustrated with this cyclical pattern of thinking I've made significant progress only to feel like I forgot how to throw entirely :wall:

Link: https://youtu.be/Q87inCQ2LSc

 

[CEP1295]

Okay,

I think I've made some good strides. The perpetually longer drill seemed to really click. I started the swing from the ground up, and let it move my arm and upper body. I noticed that in the past, I was turning my upper body manually instead of letting my lower body guide the weight of the load in the arm back and let my traps and hips turn only as much as needed. It felt like I was stepping up to the plate to bat, and just letting my weight shift. Definitely felt the swing stabilize from the inside. Definitely will keep returning to this drill.

Some key things I noticed that weren't the best was in one of the clips, I threw too upwards, and I noticed that my back bent into an awkward position. Just stiffness, no pain.

Happy with it overall.

Link: https://youtu.be/LnVvJoD-LFM

 

[Brychanus]

Try starting the perpetual drill with the arm like he does in the video, then gradually allow the swing to get bigger with the legs back and forth. This helps reinforce the proper sequence, heavy momentum, and sync of the movements in both directions

 

[CEP1295]

Try starting the perpetual drill with the arm like he does in the video, then gradually allow the swing to get bigger with the legs back and forth. This helps reinforce the proper sequence, heavy momentum, and sync of the movements in both directions

Thanks for the tip on getting the drill started. By starting out with just swinging the arm, you sort of get a sense of the path you're building the momentum on, and it helps guide where you integrate the lower body into it. I'm liking this swing for a few reasons:

- arm stays closed
- slower tempo
- not trying to pull/throw, more of a swing of a pendulum
- super easy on the body

One thing I noticed was that I didn't necessarily plant on the inside of my plant foot, and a lot of the weight/energy went to the outside of my plant foot. While it felt like a smooth transition, I don't feel like I necessarily braced against the stride, more like a vertical step down onto the ground.

The hardest thing with this drill is resisting the muscle memory trigger of throwing the object. I can swing back and forth all day long, keeping everything loose, fluid, and powerful, but as soon as I think to myself, "Okay, I'm letting go of it on this next swing" my brain shifts to throwing it the previous way I know how to which results to me stiffening up the body. Definitely good to keep practicing on resisting that reflex.

While feeling good about this, it's hard to discern the real vs feel. I feel like it's smooth, and looks smooth for the most part, but I can't tell if how my swing is looking is on the proper path.

YT Link: https://youtu.be/CT70skBxe_E

 

[Brychanus]

^Let the throwing shoulder start to swing more forward and back away from the target.

 

[CEP1295]

^Let the throwing shoulder start to swing more forward and back away from the target.

Link: https://youtu.be/-nVbtMsuT0s

Is this what you meant, or did you mean more swing than turn?

 

[Brychanus]

Not quite either. Might as well frame it with this tilt drill SW shared for my current issue since it's related to yours:



Do it exactly as instructed and find a stance that gives you a good range of motion back and forth.

When you do that drill it should feel like your upper body can swing back and forth as a unit, and the shoulder should be part of a big chain or pendulum. Your mass should be braced into the legs moving each way.

Then, keep your hammer dingle arms nice and wide and see if you can carry the same range of motion to those swings.

 

[CEP1295]

Not quite either. Might as well frame it with this tilt drill SW shared for my current issue since it's related to yours:



Do it exactly as instructed and find a stance that gives you a good range of motion back and forth.

When you do that drill it should feel like your upper body can swing back and forth as a unit, and the shoulder should be part of a big chain or pendulum. Your mass should be braced into the legs moving each way.

Then, keep your hammer dingle arms nice and wide and see if you can carry the same range of motion to those swings.

That was a pretty informative video. It reminded me of one of my physics classes I took, on a macroscopic level, a molecule can have three different modes of energy: vibrational, translational, and rotational. The body has many different modes of movement (which can build energy) and he pointed out three good ones, side bends, forward and backward, and rotational.

Aside from that, here is a quick video of me working on that drill. During the hammer throw, I got a little sloppy from trying to maintain my mass in-between my feet. It's definitely easy to get into the backswing, but harder to keep it a smooth movement.

Link: https://youtu.be/tqdRcg6t0t0