Inconsistent release angles

[tapioh]

Hi Forum,

I just recently found this forum and saw that a lot of people are getting great feedback here.

I am a 30-year old guy from Finland. I have been throwing discs for five summers now, just casually on courses with friends. It was enough to develop me for a couple of first years, but now for two years I have seen hardly any progress. I have not done really any dedicated practice so far, but I decided change that.

There are probably tens of different things to correct in my game, but the most frustrating problem that has crept into my game quite recently is that my backhand throws tend to leak to the right. This is especially bad here in where I play, because most courses are quite tightly wooded and require an accurate but not necessarily very long shots.

Today I went to a local football field and I recorded some of my shots for the analysis and feedback.

This is just a shot at a target in 150'. I would not definitely need a run-up here, but I did it for the sake of demonstration:

http://https://youtu.be/_vsAxD56Yhs

A similar but not the same shot with the back view:


A shot to 270'. Actually almost hits the target water bottle, but the line is way more right and high than what I wanted.


A shot to 250'. Goes super right, but this is what I do. You can see the flight pattern.


It looks like classical rounding to me. The reach back itself does not look or feel that bad, but when I start to pull, I sort of bring the disc behind my chest. Is this a correct conclusion? Also the follow-through with the throwing hand pointing to the sky looks super awkward. From the side view, the angles of the throwing hand seem to be quite off as well and in addition, the disc does some sort of down-and-up movement during the throw.

And the more important question is that what can I do for that? Even though I concentrate on not rounding, it did not help at least in the short time span of this session.

Finally, just for a couple of throws after reviewing those videos on the field, I deliberately started concentrating on bringing the hand in the follow-through to the side and down rather than pointing to the sky and it seemed to help at least on the very limited sample size. Here is one clip of such a throw, where I threw Buzz SS 270' on a straight and intended line, sorry for the bad camera placement:


I did not have any more time to record the back view of the similar throw.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

[tapioh]

Hmm... I tried to fix the Youtube links but it seems I ended up messing the whole post up.

 

[sidewinder22]

The main issue is that your feet/legs are turned so far out from each other and your upper arm/shoulder collapses so that you are hugging yourself.

You want your rear foot to be turned more like 135 degrees from target instead of 180 so you can still drive forward off the instep instead of the heel.

You want your front foot to be planted closer to 90 degrees from target instead of 45, so that your body can turn much further back at the plant and elongate the shoulder swing.

You also want to keep your elbow more forward relative to your shoulder, so basically only the lower arm swings the disc into and away from your center. Also stay more forward addressed going into x-step instead of turning all the way back before the plant and dragging the arm/disc forward early before the plant. Basically want the disc to remain in place while you move forward around the disc and then once you plant, should be pulled taut like bow and arrow or sling shot against the disc and boom!

 

[tapioh]

Wow, that was quick! Thanks.

I still wonder what happened to my original post.

I think I understood the feet thing.

You also want to keep your elbow more forward relative to your shoulder, so basically only the lower arm swings the disc into and away from your center.

Could you please specify this a bit more in detail? I did not fully get it.

Also stay more forward addressed going into x-step instead of turning all the way back before the plant and dragging the arm/disc forward early before the plant. Basically want the disc to remain in place while you move forward around the disc and then once you plant, should be pulled taut like bow and arrow or sling shot against the disc and boom!

Just to make sure, my body/upper body turns too much in reach back and I do the reaching motion way too early.

There are certainly quite many things to focus on, but I'll go to the field tomorrow and try to address these issues and have them on film.

 

[sidewinder22]

Wow, that was quick! Thanks.

I still wonder what happened to my original post.

I think I understood the feet thing.



Could you please specify this a bit more in detail? I did not fully get it.



Just to make sure, my body/upper body turns too much in reach back and I do the reaching motion way too early.

There are certainly quite many things to focus on, but I'll go to the field tomorrow and try to address these issues and have them on film.

I fixed your video links in your post. You only should put the gibberish at the end in the youtube tags, hit quote to see how it's done.

I don't think your upper body turns too much, but your lower body/rear foot turns too much so you can't really load back inside the rear foot. Need to delay turning back so that you hit the peak or top of backswing as you plant the front foot.

 

[tapioh]

Okay, I think I got it now. I'll try to put that into practice tomorrow.

 

[tapioh]

Fieldwork done for today.

Because there were so many things, I did not try to incorporate them all at once. I started with some standstill shots to a target in 150' and I tried to focus on the forearm movement and not hugging myself.

Here are two videos:





Not super consistent yet and some shots still got out of hand, not those two though. Somehow the follow-through does not seem natural and the disc goes up in the reach back, then when it is next to the chest it goes down and up again to the release point. But I felt that there was a bit less rounding/hugging myself than yesterday.

Then I added some very light run-up to those throws. Here are again two videos, one from the side and one from the back:





In the side view video, the footwork seems to be better but in the back view video not at all. I probably forgot to concentrate on that in the throw. I threw to 150' mostly and only a couple of midrange shots to 250'-280' and did not film any of them. They were not super good, but have to work with that.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to get into more athletic stance and swing your front shoulder in a pendulum like battering ram down a door with the back of your shoulder. Note how your shoulder is up high and externally rotated with wrist is turned over while Steve's shoulder is lower and more internally rotated with wrist perpendicular to ground, so there is a difference in the orientation/release of the whole body/arm/disc.

You will probably need to adjust your grip.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3440757#post3440757

 

[tapioh]

Need to get into more athletic stance and swing your front shoulder in a pendulum like battering ram down a door with the back of your shoulder.

I tried to mimic what you did in the Power of Posture video but with a disc. I tried to take a firm stance and then swing back and forth and finally throw. I can see what you mean by more athletic stance. I did not have time to watch and digest the Battering ram video yet, but I'll watch it today.

Note how your shoulder is up high and externally rotated with wrist is turned over while Steve's shoulder is lower and more internally rotated with wrist perpendicular to ground, so there is a difference in the orientation/release of the whole body/arm/disc.

You will probably need to adjust your grip.

Yeah, this is very clear now that you point it out that way. I might know a reason why I do that and it is that I normally do on the course a warm-up throw, or make the run up and throwing motion, of course without throwing actually. Then I have been told to keep the disc level... and keeping the disc level without throwing it in the backswing requires keeping the arm externally rotated and palm pointing up to the sky. That's probably where it has crept to my actual throwing form from. Also, one of my friends noted that my wrist does something strange at the end of the motion when I was wondering out loud my bad throws at the course.

I made some casual standstill short-range training shots trying to concentrate on not hugging myself. They were done before I read your previous message. I think I will focus on standstill form and only after that I'll try to think the footwork. Otherwise there would be too many things to try to work on at the same time. Slow-mo reveals that the disc leave my hand with nose notably up.





Generally, I have of course known that my technique is far from good, but I did not have really any tools to develop it. Now, with just three posts I have gained several quite precise things what to focus on. I am very thankful for it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, your second vid appears to be private, but no matter. In first vid, your backswing has your hips and arm moving away from target together, instead of shifting hips back first then swing arm back while you start shifting hips forward in equal opposite motions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=4m42s

Your rear side is also just going around your front side, instead of moving behind the front side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um5cS9u_Y0w&t=4m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvujcEMLxs#t=1m25s

 

[tapioh]

Yeah, this is very clear now that you point it out that way. I might know a reason why I do that and it is that I normally do on the course a warm-up throw, or make the run up and throwing motion, of course without throwing actually. Then I have been told to keep the disc level... and keeping the disc level without throwing it in the backswing requires keeping the arm externally rotated and palm pointing up to the sky. That's probably where it has crept to my actual throwing form from. Also, one of my friends noted that my wrist does something strange at the end of the motion when I was wondering out loud my bad throws at the course.

Backswing should read follow-through - but you probably figured that out.

In first vid, your backswing has your hips and arm moving away from target together, instead of shifting hips back first then swing arm back while you start shifting hips forward in equal opposite motions.

Any better now?



That's funny you talk during the whole video about that correct movement, but I missed it nonetheless. I have always thrown standstill so that I move the weight to the rear foot with the disc, so it is hard to change

I did quite a bunch of upshots to 150' trying to do the weightshift and balancing as I understood it should be done. At least it felt better. Here is one.

 

[sidewinder22]

Kind of looks better. Your stance is open. Try doing the elephant walk.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[tapioh]

Kind of looks better. Your stance is open. Try doing the elephant walk.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

Should my feet be parallel to each other?

 

[sidewinder22]

Should my feet be parallel to each other?

Stagger rear toes about inline to front heel. See Battering Ram.

 

[tapioh]

Stagger rear toes about inline to front heel. See Battering Ram.

Yeah, I was thinking about my stance being open and if that means that the feet angle is too open, right?

So, should my feet be like | | instead of slightly \ | or even \ / ? If that makes any sense to you.

 

[sidewinder22]

Really depends on your flexibility and distance .

 

[tapioh]

Btw, do you think my approach to start from standstill throws to very casual distance is reasonable?

I really had got the whole timing and weightshifting wrong. I thought that (in standstill throws) the weight would go alongside the disc; in the backswing the weight would be on the rear foot and transfer onto the front food when throwing. But it is somewhat hard at least now in the standstills, when I should do the backswing and weightshift at the same time and still hold the balance/brace on the front foot when throwing. What I mean is that it feels like a long time to be on my front foot.

Really depends on your flexibility and distance .

Yeah, I can see Seppo has an open stance here, but of course he is not doing actual driving drills

 

[sidewinder22]

Seppo's stance is more closed than yours, his is just like I described with rear toes inline front heel.

Try walking perpendicular to target and swinging. This should help make your leg action and weightshift more natural.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[tapioh]

OK. Even at the risk of sounding stupid, but I want to make sure:

An open stance:

Not an open stance:

 

[tapioh]

I took a couple of days break, because I played and did fieldwork quite much in the last week.

Today I did one session. Mainly shot to 100' - 200'. I briefly did the elephant walk drill, but next time with more thought and time.

Nothing drastically changed, here are two clips anyway:





I can't remember how those shots ended up, but the process is same nonetheless. Short upshots went better at least resultwise, but "longer" to 200'-250' leaked here and there. Those two videos do not reveal it completely, but I tend to do nose-up release every time.