Individual anatomy vs. positional analysis

[Rastnav]

It is a very rainy day and I am stuck inside, so I finally got around to making a short video I've had in my head for a little bit. I've alluded to this a few times, but I wanted to ask a couple of very concrete questions.

How many of you can reach the positions I demonstrate in the below video, and do so without manipulating other parts of your body? Don't differences in anatomy tend to make trying analyze an individuals swing by looking strictly at arbitrary positions sub-optimal for many people?



These questions are very much related to the idea of kinematic analysis. For example, when we look at PGA tour players, their swings may look very different from each other, but kinematically they look nearly identical. The basic idea has frequently been at least hinted at in various videos and ideas around here, but I'm not sure it's been discussed outright.

 

[seedlings]

I can't quite get to my pec with your shoulder mobility example- probably 3" away. My natural hip relax position is about 45 deg. I can get about 15:degrees knees toward each other, where you can't get any. IDK what that means though!

 

[Brychanus]

Love this & want to hear more from folks.

1. I cannot get either elbow past my sternum (in fact they barely reach it). Some may be mobility, much of it is short arms & wide shoulders & large chest. Probably part of why my power stroke is pretty low & I need a wide shoulder/arm angle heading into the hit. A GG and a SW22 are probably better form models for me than you. You might get mileage out of form that allows you to swing through a medium (Gibson) to high (Orum, McBeth) arm slot depending on how long your arms are relative to your shoulder (looks like a bigger arm:shoulder ratio than mine). However, I do think many pros often tend to swing lower through their center of gravity when they're going for max distance.

2. I can't as easily get my feet to lay flat on the ground as you, and can get my feet and knees to point toward one another a bit without strain. If our overally flexibility is similar, you are more ER-dominant than me. More Gavin Rathbun than Kevin Jones. I think Lizotte is more ER-dominant but I think SW22 has it right when he says you need his shinobi-style skills and body type to pull especially his lower body action off effectively.

 

[jupiterboy]

I think you've pulled two good examples out, and that there are considerably more. One wonders if coaching advise generally can be stripped down to universals or too much is individualized. I know I take in a bunch of instruction but I have to go through an internalization vetting process to see "how true" whatever given wisdom is for me at my current stage. I suspect anatomy of the hand and variance in finger length ultimately dictate best grip, and that torso to leg length ratio has its own influence on brace.

 

[timothy42b]

I'm glad to see this brought up. The followon question is how do we modify technique to accomodate less than optimal mobility?

For example, my shoulder has very little layback. I can't get into the positions of Ryan Sheldon, Eagle, Ben Brewster. What should I do differently to get the most out of my limited resource.

 

[Rastnav]

If our overall flexibility is similar, you are more ER-dominant than me.
...
shinobi-style skills
...

I went to the ER a lot when I was a child. I think I'm more of a natural "drunken master" style.

Past that, I have no idea what you mean?

I will say that my PT buddy says that what my hips do is related to/caused by a natural anterior pelvic tilt. No clue whether that means I need to fight against it or whether that means I should expect my optimal form to be in a more upright/vertical position than most.

 

[Rastnav]

Gavin Rathbun

I do think I see what you mean about Rathbun having some tendencies in his swing that sure look like they apply to me.

When I look at the where he is as he is reaching back and at full reach back, I see arm angle well under 90 degrees and then his hips are already "open" as he plants.

Then you definitely see something odd still going on with his shoulder as he gets to back to "neutral" torso rotation. But the absolute key thing that I think I have to somehow get closer to is that he keeps his forearm from opening until way, way, way later. He is also very upright, even for what looks like to me a very flat release.

 

[RFrance]

I went to the ER a lot when I was a child. I think I'm more of a natural "drunken master" style.

Past that, I have no idea what you mean?

I will say that my PT buddy says that what my hips do is related to/caused by a natural anterior pelvic tilt. No clue whether that means I need to fight against it or whether that means I should expect my optimal form to be in a more upright/vertical position than most.

I believe Brychanus is referring to External Rotation and not Emergency Room.

See the discussion here:

 

[Brychanus]

Lol sorry, yes externally rotated. That's why big throwers who are more duck footed or externally rotated look like they're more open in the plant- they're just in whatever position is getting leverage, so their feet are pointing further away from one another because that's their neutral position.

Of course I'm not your/a physical therapist but if you've got more natural anterior tilt, I guess intuitively you might tend to stand more upright in your neutral posture to keep from tipping out of balance too far forward while maintaining your neutral spine position. You'd still need to find wherever you naturally sit into your hips to keep leverage. I find that doing side shuffle steps and cross behind steps in an athletic posture helps the body figure that out.

Interested in others' eyes on the other details of someone like Rathbun such as the shoulder/forearm. Notice his posture is pretty aggressive slanted toward the target like all top throwers through the swing. Looks like his arms are somewhat long and his posture brings his torso and shoulder swinging forward over the front knee farther before the forearm swings forward- lots of lag. Reminds me a bit of Mcbeth in that case.

For rastnav, what I meant about Simon is that he has maybe similar external rotation or duck footedness, but I still wouldn't recommend him as the first form model. He's shaped more like a beanpole, which allows him to get every part of his body aligned in a way most people can't. He is super flexible to achieve his postures. His legs appear pretty long relative to his torso (part of jupiterboy's point), which is important for how he can maintain his stance and spacing when he swings and how he can fully load the bow with his aggressive striding style (just like Eagle). Their long legs can lever them very aggressively into their plants. I'm calling that out because I dont think SW22 is talking out of his ass there - even though I've gotten much more flexible for DG specific moves in the past year and understand how to do the Simon-like motion pattern better, it just seems like I'll never get the same power from that move. Even if you can do it in balance, it is unlikely to be ergonomic or maximal for all bodies. Staying stacked more vertically with a bit of hop and taking my leg limits out of the equation is one solution for me. Some people might be somewhere in between etc.


Also like jupiterboy said, I have found tremendous value in working to learn what high level swings have in common. But overthinking is a real thing and I've needed to be coached almost every step of the way just to get my body to swing freely and lead with my center of gravity. I think a lot of people get stuck for lots of reasons along the way. I do think onboarding general mechanics is very wise. That's like chiseling from marble and getting the rough outline of the sculpture. But then you need finer tools and even more patience to adapt that template to the final form.

 

[Sheep]

It is a very rainy day and I am stuck inside, so I finally got around to making a short video I've had in my head for a little bit. I've alluded to this a few times, but I wanted to ask a couple of very concrete questions.

How many of you can reach the positions I demonstrate in the below video, and do so without manipulating other parts of your body? Don't differences in anatomy tend to make trying analyze an individuals swing by looking strictly at arbitrary positions sub-optimal for many people?


These questions are very much related to the idea of kinematic analysis. For example, when we look at PGA tour players, their swings may look very different from each other, but kinematically they look nearly identical. The basic idea has frequently been at least hinted at in various videos and ideas around here, but I'm not sure it's been discussed outright.

Well, I will say you'd struggle to sheer sheep if you cannot get your toes in.

I cannot get my toes out like that though.

I like amusing thoughts. This is good.

 

[Rastnav]

Yeah, I don't think I match well with Simon or Eagle. They have huge doses of disc golf special sauce that I just don't have, and I'm going to guess that they are mobile in places that I am not (despite being overall fairly flexible). My overall build is more like GG, but I think, as you said, it probably stops there. Rathbun seems like he might match some key characteristics, but at 6'2" and a generally willowy, long build, it probably only goes so far.

But overthinking is a real thing and I've needed to be coached almost every step of the way just to get my body to swing freely and lead with my center of gravity. I think a lot of people get stuck for lots of reasons along the way. I do think onboarding general mechanics is very wise. That's like chiseling from marble and getting the rough outline of the sculpture. But then you need finer tools and even more patience to adapt that template to the final form.

All of this I agree with. Unfortunately, it seems to me, that most to all of what's available pushes me in the opposite direction from where I need to go. The specific things the drills do seem to work to push my body into less athletic, less advantageous positions. Hence trying to understand whether that might be down to more than just "mentality" (whatever that might mean).

Now, maybe I'm wrong. Except that … I've been working at this for years, have even payed for a lot of coaching and it seems to me that my progress has been glacial and mostly down to me to figure out. So, empirically, I'm not sure I even can be wrong.

 

[Rastnav]

I believe Brychanus is referring to External Rotation and not Emergency Room.

See the discussion here:

That video was potentially very helpful. Not just because of the confirmation that external rotation is a thing, but specifically the idea of sitting on the externally rotated back leg and then firing at the very end to get rear leg drive and rotation. When I look at the positions that Rathbun is in through his swing, it sure looks a lot like that.

 

[petered0518]

I have been obsessing over this topic for most of the day while I should be working, so I'm going to post some thoughts and then try to revisit later (with pictures of pros).

I've been looking at slo-mos of a number of pros, and there is minimal variance in positions once they get to the power pocket. They all look very similar at that point. But there is huge variance in the position at the final stride before the throw (think position when toe first touches in the plant).

ER vs IR has already been brought up in this thread which can usually be seen in the position of the back leg during the throw, but I think there is also an up and down component to it as well. Some coil in a more upright position (wide angle between spine and femurs when viewed from behind) like Ricky W and Gavin R while others coil in a more hunched position like Eagle and Kevin J. I have been playing around with the ease of rotating the hips, and the angle between spine and femur definitely seems to have a role. For me personally, I seem to have much more hip freedom when I'm more upright as opposed to hunched over.

My current operating theory is that most of the variance in the coil position is simply the player optimizing the amount of hip freedom they can get based on their anatomy. That is probably obvious to some already, but it seems like a revelation to me.
So when we say that you should choose a pro who "looks like you" to base your form off of, I agree but think that is limited. You should probably also try to figure out what position gets you the most hip freedom and find a pro who throws like that. I think that is more important than height, weight, lever lengths, etc.

 

[Brychanus]

I have been playing around with the ease of rotating the hips, and the angle between spine and femur definitely seems to have a role. For me personally, I seem to have much more hip freedom when I'm more upright as opposed to hunched over.

Pics always help since it's easy to misunderstand some of this in type. On this pt. specifically, depending on what you mean, what appears to be hunched (which often means too much spine C-curve) might just be more depth into the stance in high-level throwers. We never want to hunch, but can get wider/deeper into this stance:

E.g., in seabas22 Reverse stride most players without significant mobility issues can probably also get quite deep and wide and swing their center of gravity freely, but your exact stance at a given depth of the posture probably differs. Many players also have problems with how they hinge in the hips and use their legs to move their weight that become very obvious in wider and deeper stances.

 

[Dochammer]

Pics always help since it's easy to misunderstand some of this in type. On this pt. specifically, depending on what you mean, what appears to be hunched (which often means too much spine C-curve) might just be more depth into the stance in high-level throwers. We never want to hunch, but can get wider/deeper into this stance:

E.g., in seabas22 Reverse stride most players without significant mobility issues can probably also get quite deep and wide and swing their center of gravity freely, but your exact stance at a given depth of the posture probably differs. Many players also have problems with how they hinge in the hips and use their legs to move their weight that become very obvious in wider and deeper stances.

To add to what you're saying, I just came across this video about the different postures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcp26v8CxJQ.

I have much less internal rotation in my right hip compared with my left hip (from a back injury) and didn't internalize how bad it was until I tried some RHBH throws (I'm a lefty). I could easily get into positions throwing righty that I struggle with throwing lefty. This has sent me down a rabbit hole, trying to understand and correct the discrepancy between my hips (core too). Like what is discussed in the above video, understanding how the pelvic can change posture was helpful -- it's something obvious I never internalized before. I'm also considering switching to RHBH while I work on my right side, since throwing LHBH lately has been irritating my lower back.

Mentioning that improving strength and flexibility is an important part of the process often feels left out of the conversation when people (myself, in particular) are seeking more distance. I am also more PT positive atm because I'm digesting so much content, like let's all include a Thomas test in our form reviews!

 

[jupiterboy]

One thing I've learned about myself is my posture naturally shifts during the throw (long torso). I've got to counteract that because I will naturally shift into a more anhyzer stance at the hit. It's worse when I get tired.

 

[Waddball]

One thing I've learned about myself is my posture naturally shifts during the throw (long torso). I've got to counteract that because I will naturally shift into a more anhyzer stance at the hit. It's worse when I get tired.

I'm in a similar boat, when I get tired I definitely sway more and tend to throw more accidental anhyzers. I don't have the excuse of a long torso though, just a fat one.

This seems like it would be a fairly common problem. It's sort of like how a defensive/ready position declines in basketball as the game goes on; it takes active effort and stamina for a proper forward tilt (not rounding or cheating in some way). Probably yet another of several reasons (at least for me) to go from a more vertical posture in the x-step and drop more into the plant rather than dropping earlier.

 

[jupiterboy]

I'm in a similar boat, when I get tired I definitely sway more and tend to throw more accidental anhyzers. I don't have the excuse of a long torso though, just a fat one.

This seems like it would be a fairly common problem. It's sort of like how a defensive/ready position declines in basketball as the game goes on; it takes active effort and stamina for a proper forward tilt (not rounding or cheating in some way). Probably yet another of several reasons (at least for me) to go from a more vertical posture in the x-step and drop more into the plant rather than dropping earlier.

Thankfully my wife will follow my onto the course and do a little filming, which is to say it can feel like you are overcompensating when the result shows how little change you really get from something that may feel unnatural at first. If I can remember to push my butt out a little it all stays in line better.

 

[sidewinder22]

It is a very rainy day and I am stuck inside, so I finally got around to making a short video I've had in my head for a little bit. I've alluded to this a few times, but I wanted to ask a couple of very concrete questions.

How many of you can reach the positions I demonstrate in the below video, and do so without manipulating other parts of your body? Don't differences in anatomy tend to make trying analyze an individuals swing by looking strictly at arbitrary positions sub-optimal for many people?



These questions are very much related to the idea of kinematic analysis. For example, when we look at PGA tour players, their swings may look very different from each other, but kinematically they look nearly identical. The basic idea has frequently been at least hinted at in various videos and ideas around here, but I'm not sure it's been discussed outright.

I posted that same article in the Kinetic Sequence Thread.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

See PSA post 1 #4 Form Models:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126516

I've talked repeatedly about Door Frame Drills and how you have to play around with rear foot position for you to feel the most leverage.

Starting post #13 talking about IR vs ER dominance:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137173

These go over some variations of hip anatomy and arm slot.



I've posted this SC in the hips thread and probably hundreds of times before. Also see post #11 about Climo vs Feldberg.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543